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Thread: can a carputer compete with a head unit for sound quality?

  1. #331
    Super Moderator. If my typing sucks it's probably because I'm driving.... turbocad6's Avatar
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    ....I like to mount conventional tweeters down low for this reason.... you'd be surprised what a difference in imaging you can get just by taking a pair of tweeters off the mirror triangle & putting them down in the kickpanels & aimed up at the dome light..... try it sometime...... huge difference in imaging, but this could bring your whole soundstage lower also.... a slight kick of a db or 2 at around 3.2k should bring the stage right back up high.......

  2. #332
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    u know -I can't help but notice all of this talk about 'in an ideal situation' blah blah blah

    we all know a car is far from the ideal situation, so why all the concern about it?

    I understand knowing what would be idea, because that will help to guide you as to how to place speakers, but to talk about it like it's been talked about recently is pointless IMO.

    Sure, time delays shouldn't need to be used, sure tuning shouldn't need to happen...all in an ideal set-up....but there really isn't an idea set-up...so how is it a relevant point?

    lol

    just an observation



    as for tweeter positions - there are a few different schools of thought - back when, I know that mounting everything in the kick was idea, now it's different though, pillars seem to be getting the best results according to what's winning comps...

    but I'm sure in the next few years, it will all change yet again...lol
    Jan Bennett
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  3. #333
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    If your car just can't create a decently centered front stage and you don't carry passengers much, then the time alignment would be a great thing to have. It depends a lot on the car, but any time alignment between the front speakers that may improve one side will always hurt the other from an imaging standpoint. Outside of competions it can really be usefull. Besides, how many passengers are going to complain? I knew a lot of high end competitors who used time alignment away from competition when they drove their cars on the street. Nothing wrong with making a sweet spot.

    I'm still thinking time alignment between the sub and the front drivers may be really usefull on systems that already image well. I think it could potentially make the subs sound more like they are up front and that is very important. I haven't messed with it though. Have any of you?

  4. #334
    Super Moderator. If my typing sucks it's probably because I'm driving.... turbocad6's Avatar
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    delays used to tune subs is great..... easy to remove the rear localization of the sub by using delay... it's the equivelent of fine tuning the phase...., well, IT IS fine tunning the phase really



    and about ideal....,ideal.... no such thing...... I mean your in a cramped tiny cabin, sitting off center shoved to one side & surounded by huge relatively flat glass panes.... compound this with all the other direct & indirect reflections in a cabin this tiny, now add the upholstery to the mix.... add tons of reverbs & resonations... finally add to this the fact that one speaker is firing into the side of your leg while it's opposing driver is way over there.... possibally blocked by someone elses leg..... add a noise floor of over 80db at idle... there's nothing ideal about this.... theres no way to get perfect acurate studio quality reproduction in a car, period, any true audiophile will tell you this...., but that doesn't mean it's totally hopeless either.....

    to me, ideal is really determined in the end result.... not what it takes to get there..... in a home auditioning room, you may need little or no equalization.... AS LONG AS your equiptment & speakers are all giving you perfect reproduction, & there are no strange accoustic propertys in the room & everything is set up to eliminate standing waves.... you are listening to just the speakers!!!!! stratigic acoustic panels can be placed to absorb reflections..... a home is way different from a car..... a pro who sets up high end home theater &/or auditioning rooms, sound rooms, etc... will tell you that this can't be reproduced in a vehicle, no way and you know what, it's really not possible, but you can get relatively close

    the only advantage a car has over a listening room is the increased bass transfer function of a small cabin..... this is why you can't get bass in a house the way you can in a car.... to get this kind of bass transfer you'd have to set up the system in a room no bigger than a closet, but of course that would negate everything else.... every thing else about a vehicle install is terible

    dispite all of the severe setbacks a vehicle has, it is still possible to have a system that is enjoyable.... it is still possible to create pinpoint acuracy & a realistic soundstage.... it's still possible to get relatively close to perfect.... or as close to perfect as can be percieved in this environment, BUT & this is a big BUT, you willl need equalization & tunning & you will need to optimise speaker positioning & aiming.... you will need to take off axis responses into account.. you will need to dampen at least the worse offenders such as flimsy panels & stuff.. the more dampening the better.. basically an eq in a car is not to fix the sound of the system as much as it is to compensate for the deficiencys in the environment & install....


    to me ideal is in the end result.... an ideal end result to me is to have a system that achieves pin point accuracy & a realistic soundstage.... ideally there should be no strange resonations or reverberations... no exteme peaks or holes in the overall spread... it should sound real... the realer the better.... & it should have depth..... vocals coming off the hood of the car & out to the front bumper is ideal to me..... ideal is when I listen to something & it just makes me smile, inside & out

    an eq in a car is to correct the problems that a vehicle install produces, & to tune out anomolies & resonations produced by the vehicle, & to trim & boost holes & peaks created by the speaker positioning & off axis deficiencies, not to change the sound to how you want it to sound, but rather to compensate for problems created by the environment there installed in.

    when you are listening to your system, you are not just hearing the speakers.... if this was the case this would be simple really... but it's much more complex than that... the car itself changes & adds to the sound dramatically & anything that vibrates creates sound.......... if the only thing that vibrated was the speakers you should be so lucky... that's what you'll get in a soundroom, NOT a car. tuning is about removing the car from the equation....


    some famous artist who chiseled statues or something once said that the statue was already in the stone, all he was doing was removing the excess material to reveal it...... THAT is the key to car audio sound quality, plain & simple.

  5. #335
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    I agree 100%.

    Here's a little story that gives a real world example of how a car can create an anomoly and how I fixed it without using the EQ or any electronics.

    In my last car I had the tweeter and mids in sealed kick panels and it took me a while, but I noticed the right side of the stage sounded lower, like dash level, while the left side was higher, at eye level. This perplexed the hell out of me and I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. I finally found the reason. There is a plastic panel on the underside of the dash that covers all the A/C related stuff and the drivers side was open. I was getting some reflected sound off that panel and the result was a lower stage on that side. I fixed it by glueing some black padded headliner material onto that panel. The material absorbed to high freq reflections and raised the sound stage height to where it should have been.

  6. #336
    Maximum Bitrate Borte's Avatar
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    turbocad6 i agree 100%!
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  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonWW
    You say tuning shouldn't need to happen? Maybe you were thinking in too broad of strokes, because I don't think you believe that, do you?
    no - I was repeating what was said earlier in the thread by edscholl - the idea that you shoulnd't have to do much adjusting.

    you're preaching to the choir that tuning is critical....I had one of the best in the world tune my car for 5 hours, and that's a small amount of tuning! Wilson Adcock was gracious enough to spend an entire friday night tuning for me.

    Tuning is critical. Tuning through setting the levels, positioning and aiming the drivers, adjusting the x-overs, designing the subwoofer enclosures, etc... is all important from a tuning standpoint. Serious audiophiles may not use EQ's at all in a home setup, but in a car, yea, they really are needed. Just try not to abuse them.
    I'm guessing that you didn't really read my post throughly, because I just said the same exact same in my post.
    Jan Bennett
    FS: VW MKIV Bezel for 8" Lilliput - 95% Finished

    Please post on the forums! Chances are, someone else has or will have the same questions as you!

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbocad6
    and about ideal....,ideal.... no such thing...... I mean your in a cramped tiny cabin, sitting off center shoved to one side & surounded by huge relatively flat glass panes.... compound this with all the other direct & indirect reflections in a cabin this tiny, now add the upholstery to the mix.... add tons of reverbs & resonations... finally add to this the fact that one speaker is firing into the side of your leg while it's opposing driver is way over there.... possibally blocked by someone elses leg..... add a noise floor of over 80db at idle... there's nothing ideal about this.... theres no way to get perfect acurate studio quality reproduction in a car, period, any true audiophile will tell you this...., but that doesn't mean it's totally hopeless either.....
    that's EXACTLY what I was saying....

    how in the hell did my post get turned around to sound like I was saying anything different? I just went and reread it and it still soundss the way I ment it to sound...

    why all the talk about ideal? when nothing is ideal in a car? it seems pointless to me!......isn't that what I was saying???

    I'm so lost as to how that would get misread!? lol
    Jan Bennett
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  9. #339
    FLAC
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    I try and read everything thoroughly, but after a few days I forget who said what.
    I think I took what you said out of context. I missed your point. Although I swear you said something different. You didn't edit it did you? JK
    Sorry.

    Who's Ed? I don't even remember him.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC-S60
    Quote Originally Posted by edscholl
    as i said, exactly how much processing do you think you need? it ain't a whole lot if you want to reproduce accurate sound, versus process the sound to make it sound different than the original source. this is because the information (imaging, sound stage, etc) you're using needs limited processing to begin with- it's simply included in the source.
    For listening music in ideal circumstances this could be true, but in a car you have to compensate for the environment the music is reproduced in.

    The source can't include the compensation needed to reproduce the sound correctly in every situation.
    this is where it all started..then a few posts after this talking about 'ideal' situations....
    Jan Bennett
    FS: VW MKIV Bezel for 8" Lilliput - 95% Finished

    Please post on the forums! Chances are, someone else has or will have the same questions as you!

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