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Thread: Speaker questions

  1. #1
    Newbie Ivan_Deslayer's Avatar
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    Speaker questions

    While working on planning out my other project I got to thinking. I drive a 4-door sedan.
    It has a premium audio system. I upgraded it by adding decent speakers. Improved the sounds immensely. Iíve been thinking about relocating the speakers/tweeter and adding subs. Iíve seen on some 4-door sedans that they also install speakers in the rear doors. Whatís the advantage of this? What type of speakers would get installed in this location? Would this also effect what to install on the package shelf/ rear deck?

    Thankyou again for bearing with me.
    This is my disclaimer: I believe in doing things a certain way and to a certain standard. These are my standards for myself, if you hold yourself to high standards great, if you do not then don't knock or nitpick the people who do and what they say.

  2. #2
    Maximum Bitrate boomintrac's Avatar
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    IMO save the money from the rear speakers and invest in better components for the front. rear stage just draws the sound to the rear. also once you run a front only speaker sound stage you wont go back.
    Aron
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  3. #3
    Constant Bitrate
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    Rear Doors... Rear Deck... just different places for the manufacturers to place speakers when designing the car.

    IMO, speakers on the rear deck help to produce a more "fuller" sound throughout the car -- as if the sound is coming from all around you. I've been told that this has to do with the way sound resonates off glass (since your rear deck speakers point up), and I'm sure there's some merit to it... but not sure that's the only reason.

    You do want to have speakers close to a listener's ear, especially with high frequencies (i.e. tweeters). Therefor, the only type of speakers I would place in rear doors is for low to mid-low frequencies, as they are less directional. Rear door speakers are generally pointed at each other, and have legs and cargo in the way to absorb high frequencies --- hence one reason why I think it's better for that type of speaker in rear doors.

    I wouldn't really spend the money to move speakers from rear deck to rear doors, unless you have a design plan that calls for it, or you are supplementing the rear deck speakers

  4. #4
    Newbie Ivan_Deslayer's Avatar
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    Thank you for the replies. I guess I'd use them as supplemental being where they are located.
    This is my disclaimer: I believe in doing things a certain way and to a certain standard. These are my standards for myself, if you hold yourself to high standards great, if you do not then don't knock or nitpick the people who do and what they say.

  5. #5
    Newbie Ivan_Deslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomintrac View Post
    IMO save the money from the rear speakers and invest in better components for the front. rear stage just draws the sound to the rear. also once you run a front only speaker sound stage you wont go back. Aron

    Can you elaborate a little more on this?
    This is my disclaimer: I believe in doing things a certain way and to a certain standard. These are my standards for myself, if you hold yourself to high standards great, if you do not then don't knock or nitpick the people who do and what they say.

  6. #6
    FLAC greatwhite's Avatar
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    Here's the skinny on front/rear speakers and sound stage (as I understand it) in a nutshell:

    Some people say front speakers only, some say use both. The reasoning behind both is sound stage and what is the best reproduction of the original sound.

    Think about when you listen to a concert. The musicians are all up in front of you, and that's what front speaker only people are trying to replicate. The sound is full and bright and if set up right, it often sounds as if the musician is standing on the dash playing music. Just like standing on a stage at a concert.
    Another "bonus" (if you want to look at it that way) is that you can turn the music up a bit in the front without having your rear passengers deafened or unable to converse with the front seats because they can't hear you. You could do the same thing by turning down the rear speakers, but this defeats the purpose of them in the first place.

    Sounds just about perfect right?

    Well, here's the other side of that coin:

    When you are at a concert, yes the music is being generated in front of you. But the sound echo's and bounces off objects around and behind you, giving the "fill" effect people mention. See where the rear speaker crowd is going? They use the rear speakers to create this "fill". But you have to do it right and the rear speakers play pretty low. Some others will argue that the front speakers sound bouncing around in your ambient enviroment gives the best fill properties. Personal choice, in my experience, is the best determining factor in this debate......

    Some others will cry out "how will you ever get 5.1 without rears?" Well, from my "limited" research, the car is a P*** poor enviroment for this anyways. And the only real time it's of any use is when watching movies, and even then it's only of any real use for the front seats as the sound stage has to be set up properly. The rears only add ambient sounds in 5.1. Listen to your home setup on rears only to get a better idea.

    I currently run front speakers only, and the sound is great. I was listening to janet jackson the other day and it sounded as if she was sitting right there on my lap. Then cheryl crow came on and it sounded just the same. Anytime a sound system can fool your ears like that, that's pretty good in my opinion!


    However, I'm going to try adding the rears to my setup, just to see if there is a more realistic reproduction of the sound. Keep in mind, I'm using the KXDriver project so I'll be messing with levels and sound delays too............important if you want to try and "fill out the sound" by giving impressions of reflected sound and echo's. It'll e more of a little experiment for me though, I'm the consumate tinkerer, I can never leave well enough alone...............

    It's all up to you and your ears. Put simply, what sounds best to you.

    Cheers
    For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.
    Leonardo Da Vinci

  7. #7
    Newbie Ivan_Deslayer's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna ask a stupid question now. On my sedan it has components in front. Came that way from the factory I just upgraded what was there. I have a feeling though that I need to orient the speakers "aim" better. Both speakers are located in the lower front of the door panel. If I move my leg the music seems to sound better but not a comfortable way to drive. I've read moving the tweeters to the a-pillar should get me a better stage. The question I have is aiming of the mids. Can I just build pods for the doors to get them aimed up or should I breakdown and put them in the kick panels? There are no aftermarkets for this orientation and would need to be fabricated. I'd rather not.


    Again thank you greatly for the replies and bearing with me.
    This is my disclaimer: I believe in doing things a certain way and to a certain standard. These are my standards for myself, if you hold yourself to high standards great, if you do not then don't knock or nitpick the people who do and what they say.

  8. #8
    FLAC greatwhite's Avatar
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    How serious do you want to get with your install?

    OE's don't do a lot of reseach when fitting a sound system to a vehicle. It's always a compromise for them between cost, space and styling. Most speakers are in the door because they fit there and blend into the interior esily, not because they sound good.

    There are some more or less rules for installing in automotive enviroments. Keep in mind, I am by no means and expert.

    You want to try and equalize the length from each speaker to your ear. The kick panels are usually the best place for this. But you'd have to fabricate something and most times i run into trouble if you have a foot parking brake when building pods for this location. Also, winter becomes an issue where I live and having speakers down by my wet salty boots. If you live somewhere warm, probably not an issue. But kick panels allow closer to equal length for the speakers and angling them up can help raise the sound stage if positioned well.

    You can also try aiming the speakers in the door in different directions. This would involve making some wedges or custom angled speaker rings. You'd be limited by the room available in your door enclosure too, unless you want to start cutting stuff.

    Seperating the tweets and mids by more than 3 feet is usually not recommended as you run into timing issues.

    That being said, mine are seperated in the 300M. The mids are in the doors and the tweets are in the sails. Sounds good to me. I took my tweets and used a 3 foot speaker wire, then moved them to multiple positions to see what the sound difference was (I used them for a couple days in each location). Sounded fine in the sails so that's what I went with. Please note, while my tweets are in the sails, they don't point straight out of the housing. They're angled by the use of a bracket so they point at my head (more or less). Took me the better part of two weeks just to get that angle right too......
    Tweeters are also directional due to the frequency range they reproduce, meaning they should be pointed at your earsif possible. I've also read you can "fool" tweeters by pointing them at each other. I don't understand the physics behind it, but I guess the sound reflects or itself and gives your a sound stage.

    I'd say your leg is "muffling" the sound. When you move it, the sound can travel and form as well as reflect off ambient surfaces, filling out the sound.

    Unfortunately, re-aiming the speaker probably won't fix this. You most likely have to move the speaker or cut off your leg!

    Check out some of the audio sound forums, there's a wealth of info out there. You just have to sift through it, use your reasoning and decide what is fact and what is fiction.


    Good luck
    For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.
    Leonardo Da Vinci

  9. #9
    Newbie Ivan_Deslayer's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses. When I get around to this I'll try and post some pics. First though I need to get my van sorted out and done.
    This is my disclaimer: I believe in doing things a certain way and to a certain standard. These are my standards for myself, if you hold yourself to high standards great, if you do not then don't knock or nitpick the people who do and what they say.

  10. #10
    Constant Bitrate
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    Front stage vs front+rear also depends upon the type of music you listen and how you prefer to listen to music. If most your music is electronic dj/dance type music, then rears work well because you can emulate the surround dance floor experience. Also if you like listening to music through headphones- is there such thing as front stage with headphones?- then rears may help emulate that.

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