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Thread: HELP: Ground Loop Culprit

  1. #41
    Low Bitrate jake789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    If your going to do that there is a wrong and right way to do it. The wrong way is both lines being the same guage. The right way is if your using 4 guage power use 2 guage ground. Always step the ground wire up one size bigger than your power. The reasoning for this is the resistance you are going to create on that ground wire being so long can cause a fire or heat up your components to the point of destruction.
    You are wrong. There is no reason to have a bigger ground. Current flow is the exact same on the ground wire as the power wire. If the wires are the same size and length, then their resistance will be the exact same. The heat a wire produces is more proportional to the current capacity of a wire than the resistance. The general formula for the heat produced by a wire is P(watts lost from heat) = I*I*R. So the length of the wire will add resistance which will affect the heat produced, but more importantly is the current that affects it more significantly (which is why wire is rated by max ampacity and NOT the resistance per foot although both would be usefull).

  2. #42
    Low Bitrate jake789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    Because discharged current is just as it sounds, garbage. The amps are the same but the component your powering will dictate how quickly and clean the ground will be discharged.
    Nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    The reason for the rule of thumb in grounding electronics no longer than 18 inces is because of that reason.
    This is because often your vehicle chassis is comparable to much bigger than a 1/0 wire. So any smaller wire run from your amp to chassis is similar to a bottle neck in the fact that its adding unnecessary resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    Your power can be as long as you want it to be because the flow of electrons is uninterupted from the battery to the component.
    Current (electrons in this case) flows from the negative battery terminal to the positive battery terminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    That is because of the resistance on the line because now it is no longer an uninterupted flow, its relying on the component to discharge the power smoothly which wont happen. So its not the amperage that is the problem, it is the impedence (resistance) that will rise upon length.
    I hate it when people misuse the word impedance (i.e. when theres no possiblility of a phase angle in DC voltage).

    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    You will also notice a voltage drop sometimes because of the length.
    Not "sometimes" but "always". The longer the wire, the more added resistance. Voltage drop equals V(voltage drop of wire) = I(current running through wire) * R(resistance of wire)

  3. #43
    Variable Bitrate hailrazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake789 View Post

    Current (electrons in this case) flows from the negative battery terminal to the positive battery terminal.
    But inside the battery the current flows both ways simultaneously.

  4. #44
    Vendor - C&C CUSTOMS CabeSipes's Avatar
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    Wow........he really doesnt like me! Ohms law works to a point but everything you spoke of is text book and not real world. In a pefect world all your responses would be great but in a perfect world I wouldnt have a rise in resistance (impedance) per length. In a perfect world there would be even electron discharge throughout a circuit. Since this isnt a perfect world and all electronics are made differently none of your text book responses are correct.
    I could base my wire guage needed off of the IASCA guage chart but If I am using Raptor wire that has more insulation than wire but is still called 4 guage would I be correct in using that wire if the chart said 4 guage is what I needed? Nope, cause this isnt a perfect world and nothing is truly regulated. If your telling me you can take a 1000watt amp and run a 16 foot power with a 16 foot ground and not cause more heat on the component and wire than you have created the perfect amplifier and I will take two please.

    I have had many of arguments with engineers and college blah blahs in my life but I have very rarely been proven wrong in a real world setting. I am told I am wrong, but never proven. I will be more than happy to argue the real world facts but not text book all day. I was the MECP proctor for years and nothing in that book meant a thing in real world applications. They assume if you understand the basic theorys that you can make a sound decision in a real world setting like an install bay.

    If your amplifier cannot discharge the current as smoothly as it receives than you will have problems. NO amplifier does this perfect, and yes I know ohms law and all the other theory's but they are just that, theory's. They are formulas to use to find an outcome but not guarnteed outcomes.

    The reasoning for the larger ground is to try and relieve some of the resistance (impedance) off of the amplifier with a wire run that long. Your not supposed to do it regardless but if you have to than why not try and help your amp out? If your correct than all the DB Drag competitors that our running hundreds of thousands of watts that use multiple grounds for there amps to discharge to are incorrect? Why can I grab a copper bus bar with 50 positive lines coming off of it and 1000amps of draw running through it and not burn my hand but if I grab the ground buss bar it is hotter than hell?
    Again, real world as to text book.

    Anyway, thanks for the text book spatter......it been a while since I had any spit at me

    sorry about the mispellings but my keyboard is not acting right!!!
    Google my name if you need to know who I am.

  5. #45
    Low Bitrate jake789's Avatar
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    Take 2 identical clamp meters and put one on the positive wire and one on the neg wire at the same distances from the batt or amp. Both will read nearly an identical current. What is more real world than that?

  6. #46
    Low Bitrate jake789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    If your correct than all the DB Drag competitors that our running hundreds of thousands of watts that use multiple grounds for there amps to discharge to are incorrect?
    Please show me a competitor who runs MORE ground wires than positive? At the most I've ever seen is equal runs + chassis.

    Theres nothing personal about arguing with you. I will never claim to be an expert etc. But if you post something that is contradicting to what I know, then I'll keep arguing until you can prove it.

  7. #47
    Vendor - C&C CUSTOMS CabeSipes's Avatar
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    Yes......that is correct. but you seem to forget the other part of the equation......the amplifier. If I put a quart of oil in my car and then drain it I will get a quart back out, but is it the same as when it went in? Will the oil be the exact same as when I poured it in and it travels through my motor? No, it will have picked up imperities and whatever else my motor did to it. Same with your power thoery. Yes, the current coming out is the same but what has happend to the amplifier while processing that power and rectifing it from DC to AC to DC? How much heat has been produced inside the amplifier and how much heat is on the ground line compared to the power. Try your test with a temp. gun, I have, results speak for themselves.
    Google my name if you need to know who I am.

  8. #48
    Vendor - C&C CUSTOMS CabeSipes's Avatar
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    You need to go to more world finals........I competed for years and saw many multiple ground runs.
    Google my name if you need to know who I am.

  9. #49
    Vendor - C&C CUSTOMS CabeSipes's Avatar
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    This is all I could find real quick but refer to this book.....http://books.google.com/books?id=znb...f=false.....on google. Look up chapter 6.6 and then the solution on 6.7. This is what I am refering to. I know the application is different but your answers are all based on electrical law and this book is all about electricity.
    Google my name if you need to know who I am.

  10. #50
    Low Bitrate jake789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabeSipes View Post
    You need to go to more world finals........I competed for years and saw many multiple ground runs.
    You misunderstood me, sure multiple ground runs are normal. But according to you, they should have a higher count (or larger size) of ground runs than power runs.

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