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Thread: Lets get this debate hashed out once and for all

  1. #21
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    Before I start let me say that I have been into car audio for years and a profesion installer for a year and a half. There are only two reasons to ever need rear speakers. The first is if you car about your rear passangers being able to hear the music (kinda moot though considering that they can still hear the front speakers). The second is if you have a 5.1 setup in the car. The largest problem with rear speakers is that it will ruin the phase of the audio at your ears. This causes many problems with imaging,soundstage and frequency responce. This still occurs even when you are using time alignment although ta does help a little. Some people think that you need rear speakers for bass. This may be true in some cars but by adding even a small sub (8") you gain that bass back and more.

    When designing a car 5.1 system things are a bit different. In this situation you want your rear speakers to have flat response from about 80hz-20khz and your fronts to have flat responce from about 60hz and up. If you think tuning front speakers is hard the rears are damn near impossible depending on their mounting location and orientation.

    As a little side note for those of you looking for good sound from your front speakers. I suggest you design your system so your front speakers can play down to 50-60hz without straining. This will allow you to cross over your sub much lower which will in turn lower your ability to localize it. Some of you may say why do that when bass is not able to be located below 80hz? The answer is that the first harmonic of 80hz is 160hz and we can easily locate it. Once you get down to 50-60hz you are looking at a first harmonic of 100-120hz. This makes a HUGE difference.

  2. #22
    Constant Bitrate mbuchman's Avatar
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    Attention all readers: Rear speakers are no good for bass! Thats what a sub is for. After sitting in my brothers car, I really dont even understand why people would argue so much about why rears are "necessary." Trust me, they are not. Even a 10" sub will do, and beat a rear speaker setup any day. And make sure the mids up front are enclosed so that you get better low end frequency (the 80-100 range where the sub starts to drop off). Then just set your sub to cut off between 80-120hz, and the fronts to pick up around 10 or 20hz lower (as stated by nubz69), and you will be happy like this

    The only reason I will have them are for rear channel in movies, and split channel mode (like music in front, video game in back).

    And someone said that with rear speakers, you cant hear where the music is coming from, but rather that it is just there inside the car. Guess what, its the same way in my brothers car! Just save that 100 you were going to put on rear speakers, and either get something like Boston Accoustic stuff for front channel, or a sub, or something.

    And I dont believe in needing multiple sets of components up front. Just enclose them, and for average listening (like up to 120 db or so), you should never have a problem. True, subs can overpower the mids, but that just means you either have the volume up too loud or the subs turned up too loud.

    Just my opinion, but spend the money on whatever you want.

    Matt

    Edit: Also, for bass, I would really reccommend 2 12" subwoofers, or one quality 10-15" subwoofer. I am just doing one quality 12" woofer, and look forward to getting it installed. Itll fill up the car nice and good .

  3. #23
    Maximum Bitrate CavityCr33p's Avatar
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    Hrm, I am currently only using my front speakers, which sound very good actually. I was going to hook up my 6x9's, but I think I might hold off now.

    What do you think about bare mounting a 8" under each front seat?

    Would the sound be too "close" with having speakers in the doors already?
    2000 Sunfire build 100%, or is it ever really 100%?

  4. #24
    Low Bitrate BenjaminS's Avatar
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    Ok I would like to state my opinion on this subject.

    Now this is strictly for an sq car, not 5.1 not for db drag, not for anything but sq, most people don't even really enjoy a stereo like this.

    Go to guitar center or sam ***. Ask to listen to a pair of Mackie HR824s (or any other high end speaker that they may have). This is probably the closest sound you can get to the high end audio system in a recording studio.

    It should sound like a beautifully presented and transparent stage where you can point to every instrument like it was a live performance.

    Turn around, do you see speakers behind you?

    Thats what you aim for when you build an sq car.

    So in my opinion you don't need rear speakers for a sq car.


    But if you just want a loud car, stick speakers in every fooking hole you can :P heheh
    BenjaminS
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  5. #25
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    Hmmm, this is an interesting thread indeed and I have heard this debated for a few years now and after seeing winners in several comp's who have no rear fill at all, I've determined for myself which is by no means scientific that for best clarity in an environment such as a car, rear fill is anti-productive....

    HOWEVER ... our ears are not nearly as sensitive and accurate as meters used to gauge sound competitions. When I first started developing my system my first purchase was that of a new Pioneer HU and some Infinity Ref's (6 1/2's) for the rear. I blew a stock rear speaker and that is what drove the purchase of those. Anyway, here is what I found (and this isn't the first time either). My rear speakers required way more power to drive than my HU could deliver and because of this ... they sucked major @$$ in delivering anything positive to my sound environment. Meanwhile the front speakers sounded quite nice and I continued to run with just those. They were stock separates which required much less power to drive and that is what I contribute to why they sounded so clean.

    Anyway, once I amp'd the rears with about 50W-RMS my entire sound setup sounded so crystal clear ... even at high rates of speed on 95S. After that, I would never go rearless again. Add in the new Infinity separates to the front stage 3 mos later ... and wow ... just wow. The entire setup couldn't be any better for my ears.

    My point and lesson in all of this is the following: To WIN a competition and get the cleanest (meter rated sound) system around, don't do rears. But if you're like me, and want your car to actually sound the best to your own ears...meter aside, no rears is less fufilling to me.

  6. #26
    Variable Bitrate therussman2002's Avatar
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    i heard in this car audio class i took that the human ears have no concept of stereo behind them... so rear left/right are hard to differentiate, in theory

    i also heard in said class that rear speakers are for fill to reproduce the sound bouncing off the back wall of the concert hall or whathaveyou... but dont the front speakers bounce off the back of yer car and do the same? (ive never been in a car without rear speakers... but i agree with most here when they say that more rear speaker than front sounds terrible)

    i used to balance front/rear so it sounds like the sound was coming equally from all directions... it sounded good to me, but lately ive been trying alot more sound from the front, and playing with that cmss crap from those creative cards, and I think i like more in the front better now

  7. #27
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    OKay, i'll saying thsi as a guy who set up his system piece by piece and had time to savor each set up. My argument is that if you want to enjoy music, fill up your car right. If you want to hear music, fronts are fine. And if you want a moise box, you'd want more

    In truth, you do not need rear speakers. HOWEVER, truth be told, they are a prefereable addition to any system for a person that asks for a true audio experience. My car came with only front speakers. The sound was adequate, but it definitely did not fill the car. You heard the radio, you listened to music, and that was it. After about a week or two, i finally installed my rear speakers. After a minute of driving, a smile spread across my face. The tones were rich, the sound crisper, and range fuller. Eventually, when i do upgrade the front speakers, i'll have the sound balanced, but for now, its mostly rear with minimal front. Then, i got a kickerbox with tweets, mid, and subs. I traded it for dual 12 inchs. I don't regret it. Unless you have tweets or mid, you KILL any song that you play. Don't fool yourself, bass is a good thing, too much is not a good thing. Most people treat a car like a subsonic audio chamber, losing the very essence of the music in exchange for giving a cop reason to pull them over. I was about to do the same; how i have learned. Since i put it in, i cannot go back. A full range of audio makes for a pleasurable eexperience. It may not be the coolest thing, but it is the most pleasant, and screw fashion over function.

    All in all, each argument has its place. As someone said about, each car and driver has their tastes. If you listen to AM radio for the game or the news, stick to your frotns. If you like to get down on FM, get yourself a rear or ONLY use rear, esp if they fill your car well. If you are into high powered MP3s and CDs, don't waste your 17.99 or your $50 a month cable connection- do yourself the priviledge and go get yourself a decent system. and if you're a fast and the furious, with a show car, do whatever the hell you feel like. If no one can tell you that you could have just put in a HEMI 426 in your rear in addition to your 30+ mpg stock engine and hit speeds you only thought a 1000cc motorcycle could, with ease, for the same $30,000 you spent to turbo and spruce up your engine and everything else under the hood, then you won't bother listen and think your four 12" subs with yoru 3 farad caps and 2000watt amps makes your music sound good. To each his own.

    And yes, subs and tweets are all you really should spend your money on if you want a kicking system.

  8. #28
    Maximum Bitrate fantomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genesisfactor
    And yes, subs and tweets are all you really should spend your money on if you want a kicking system.
    um...no.

    subs, mids, tweets, amplifiers, sound dampening, crossovers, the source. you really shouldnt skimp out on anything
    rebuilding carpc... kinda..

  9. #29
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    Never skimp if you can help it. Buying quality peice by quality peice will get you better results then trying to buy everything you need and getting cheap equipment.

  10. #30
    Maximum Bitrate fantomas's Avatar
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    plus its 10% equipment, 90% install. you can have the most expensive setup, but still have it sound much much worse than a setup that costs much less...
    rebuilding carpc... kinda..

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