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Thread: Standardized PIDs versus Manufacturer Specific PIDs??

  1. #1
    Newbie split63's Avatar
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    Question Standardized PIDs versus Manufacturer Specific PIDs??

    I have been doing some testing of various Power Train Modules that I have pulled off of vehicles at the wrecking yard.

    I have come across one from a 98 Caravan that I was surprised by. This caravan has its own little information center where it displays info like outside temp, Inst MPG, Ave MPG, DTE, etc.

    What was surprising was that a read of PID 00 returned:
    80,10,80,00 which corresponds to supporting only three pids; 01, 0C, and OF. These correspond to monitoring, RPM, and Absolute throttle position.

    However, I tried reading from various pids not supported, and I found that the Engine Temp and Vehicle Speed did respond and the results were consistent with those functions. I need to poke around a bit more to see what else is there


    But this has me wondering if manufactures are deliberately withholding information. Perhaps they want to stere people to the dealerships where the factory scan tool can be used at a significant charge.

    I keep reading that there are Manufacturer specific pids also. OBD II has been around for more than a decade and It just seems like these hidden PIDs would have made their way to the surface by now.

    Has anyone had similar experiences or have Manufacturer specific pid information that they can share?

  2. #2
    North of the land of Hey Huns
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    The problem is, (and this forum is guilty of this as well) whenever people start to post useful information, the information gets deleted. Probably to avoid lawsuit, who knows, but I've had to deal with Ford trying to get some of the proprietary stuff, and they really are complete dicks about it. You have to have a DAMN good reason to need them, and if they approve then you sign a NDA basically saying you will not release any of the information, or you'll be liable for quite a large amount of money. However there are some things floating around, good luck finding them!

  3. #3
    Constant Bitrate joeyoravec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by split63 View Post
    What was surprising was that a read of PID 00 returned:
    80,10,80,00 which corresponds to supporting only three pids; 01, 0C, and OF. These correspond to monitoring, RPM, and Absolute throttle position.
    That's not too surprising. Some automakers do the minimum required by law (and still whine about what little they're required to do)

    Quote Originally Posted by split63 View Post
    However, I tried reading from various pids not supported, and I found that the Engine Temp and Vehicle Speed did respond and the results were consistent with those functions. I need to poke around a bit more to see what else is there
    Also not surprising. Back in 1998 there was no validation that automakers were implementing OBD2 correctly. The information from $00 is supposed to be coherent with the PIDs that actually respond and don't respond. These days there's a conformance test and the USA requires proof that the vehicle passes before it's legal for sale. You're less likely to see those problems on a newer vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by split63 View Post
    But this has me wondering if manufactures are deliberately withholding information. Perhaps they want to stere people to the dealerships where the factory scan tool can be used at a significant charge.
    I keep reading that there are Manufacturer specific pids also. OBD II has been around for more than a decade and It just seems like these hidden PIDs would have made their way to the surface by now.
    Not so much. Each automaker DOES have enhanced diagnostics completely outside the scope of OBD2 and the information is available as long as you have the right amount of money. It seems mostly like a liability or a pain-in-the-*** tax. Automakers have a hard enough time selling cars in Great Depression Part 2. They really don't have time to supply hobbyists with enhanced data and train them on how to use it.

  4. #4
    VENDOR - ScanTool Vitaliy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by split63 View Post
    I have been doing some testing of various Power Train Modules that I have pulled off of vehicles at the wrecking yard.

    I have come across one from a 98 Caravan that I was surprised by. This caravan has its own little information center where it displays info like outside temp, Inst MPG, Ave MPG, DTE, etc.

    What was surprising was that a read of PID 00 returned:
    80,10,80,00 which corresponds to supporting only three pids; 01, 0C, and OF. These correspond to monitoring, RPM, and Absolute throttle position.

    However, I tried reading from various pids not supported, and I found that the Engine Temp and Vehicle Speed did respond and the results were consistent with those functions. I need to poke around a bit more to see what else is there


    But this has me wondering if manufactures are deliberately withholding information. Perhaps they want to stere people to the dealerships where the factory scan tool can be used at a significant charge.

    I keep reading that there are Manufacturer specific pids also. OBD II has been around for more than a decade and It just seems like these hidden PIDs would have made their way to the surface by now.

    Has anyone had similar experiences or have Manufacturer specific pid information that they can share?
    Do you think this Caravan weighs more than 8500 lb?

    Vitaliy
    OBDLink MX: world's smallest, fastest, most advanced OBD/Bluetooth adapter with SW and MS CAN support. Read the review to learn more.
    Need to look up a diagnostic trouble code? Try the most up-to-date, free DTCsearch.com!

    You cannot send me a private message using this forum. Use my email instead: vitaliy[@]scantool.net.

  5. #5
    Newbie split63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vvmaks View Post
    Do you think this Caravan weighs more than 8500 lb?
    Vitaliy
    definitely not. Why do you ask?

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    You can join ETI (Equipment Tools Institute). They help manufacturers of third party dealer scan tools get codes from OEMs. So more inexpensive scan tool solutions can be made for repair shops that cant afford the dealer tools. Chrysler is by far the best at providing help to aftermarket tools, especially in their CAN based vehicles.

    Or you can go talk to GM to the tune of 50k per model year for their PIDs.

    It can also be a liability issue. You dont want people changing settings or misinforming other modules. That can cause added warranty work.

  7. #7
    Constant Bitrate joeyoravec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberk View Post
    Chrysler is by far the best at providing help to aftermarket tools, especially in their CAN based vehicles.
    While true (they do put on the BEST tech week presentations), this past year they got greedy and switched to the paid-licensing just like GM. Maybe that's their plan to be profitable after this auto bailout? For now my favorite is Ford since they're still free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyoravec View Post
    While true (they do put on the BEST tech week presentations), this past year they got greedy and switched to the paid-licensing just like GM. Maybe that's their plan to be profitable after this auto bailout? For now my favorite is Ford since they're still free.
    Really? When did they switch? I was at last years tech week and it was great. I did not know about the switch.

  9. #9
    VENDOR - ScanTool Vitaliy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by split63 View Post
    definitely not. Why do you ask?
    I asked because in the US, vehicles with GVW <8500 lbs must support OBD-2 (for MY2004, the definition was changed to <14000 lbs).

    You said that only 01, 0C, and 0F were supported. An OBD-2 compliant vehicle would at the very least also support 1C (which OBD legislation the vehicle conforms to).

    So it sounds like maybe you got a hold of the TCM, instead of the ECM.

    Vitaliy
    OBDLink MX: world's smallest, fastest, most advanced OBD/Bluetooth adapter with SW and MS CAN support. Read the review to learn more.
    Need to look up a diagnostic trouble code? Try the most up-to-date, free DTCsearch.com!

    You cannot send me a private message using this forum. Use my email instead: vitaliy[@]scantool.net.

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