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  • How Long Until Software Dev Forum Closes ?

    This is a serious question btw to the mods.

    First of all let me say ( as I have done privatly to the admin team ) MP3car has its place in the intenational community BUT I feel there may be some conflicts about to arise in your neutralaty of running this forum.

    Its OK to attach a shop which sells items you can get else where - I have no issue in this... what I am really concerned about is the fact you are now pushing your own products both hardware and more worringly software ( and I wont go in to its cost and beta status ).

    This in my opinion will create a direct conflict with the existing software projects within the Software & Software Development forum which IMHO do have far better offerings. This is some thing I even said to God of CPU on http://www.digital-car.co.uk when he visted recently.

    My point is these projects effectivly give the community software helped created by in some cases the community and supported by the community.

    Now forgeting the fact that there is currently no support for Streetdeck or connectivty to decent nav packages, no thought for out side of the USA etc ( and I take my hat off to GodofCPU for creating it - no one can take that way from him ) its been pushed on the very same forum.

    I mean it stands to reason.. if some one can get another product that does the same and in some cases more, is better supported even if its by the commmunity, and it costs less then your not going to turn a profit which is what Selling Streetdeck is about. What about those that are charged for such as Phonecontrol which Streetdeck will also replicate ? Again a more direct comercial conflict.

    So my question is... How Long Until Software Dev Forum Closes due to this conflict or are you going to take some remedial action ?

    Further more is it possible to identify those people who are staff or involved in MP3car commercial project via their custom title... I had no idea who he was at first... I think it would be much clearer for those talking to each other exactly where they are coming from.... especially when Joe Bloggs is looking for help.

    IMHO... as I say these are talking points and not digs.

    Terran
    My Project Site

  • #2
    and what I said.

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree
      2Fast's Tumbleweed - Spag bol's Tumbleweed - 2Fast's site

      Comment


      • #5
        Hmmm, conflict of interest, ccsnet, why are you a member of mp3car and making posts while advertising for a directly competing forum? In any case, we still love and miss you ccsnet and wish you would spend more of your time with us

        In any case, if we were going to close the software development forums it would have been done a long time ago. We are not going to do that, we don't see any point to that. The software forum will never close. This is a public forum and will always be that way. StreetDeck is actually trying to be a separate entity from Mp3car and as time goes on, the two ventures will become more and more separate.

        How are we pushing our own products? We have never compared StreetDeck to any of the other offerings. There are a ton of posts on here about competitors products and some of the mistakes we made in the past. Our solution has always been to address the issues, not censor them. The one and only thing we have done for StreetDeck is give it a more prominent place in the forums. We thought about making a separate forum on the StreetDeck.com site, but that makes even less sense when we have all the other commercial products with a home base on mp3car. We like to also stay connected with what is going on with other software packages and there is no better way for us to do this then to host the forums for them. We also talk to the other developers and would love to have them work with StreetDeck and pay them for thier time or find other ways of working together that can be mutually beneficial. Most of the post administration is done by more or less regular members who we have given admin power. We make some posts about our products, but for the most part try to leave it up to you guys to decide what is and is not appropriate.

        You are right, regardless of how good our software is we will probably never be able to make a profit from the mp3car communtity alone. You said it, there are other free alternatives and to the average mp3car user who is more then capable of doing a full carputer install and figuring out the software issues on his own, trying to sell him/her software services and support doesn't make sense to us. What we are trying to do with StreetDeck is sell to and support the average consumer in a way that will bring car computing to the masses. We would love it if we could make the mp3car communty happy too with StreetDeck and will go out of our way to do this. We know we have a whole lot to gain from you guys in development experience and knowledge and is why we will be releasing the developer edition and aiming it at the average mp3car user and find a way to give it a price point and distribution model that will hopefully make you guys happy. We would like nothing more then to have mp3car users write plugins and skins and give the profit to you selling them to the average StreetDeck user who can't do it on thier own and we want to give you the tools you need to do this. I know alot of you see the commercialization of car computers as taking something away from the eliteness of it, I won't disagree with that, but just think how great it would be if everyone had a computer in thier car running on an easy to install and extensible platform. Now all the work you do in customizing your car can be appealing in a directly practical way to the rest of the world. As a computer expert, you'll always be able to do more with a car computer, but I would love it if someday I could help my friends or family out by giving them a solution they would be able to put in thier own car to solve a specific problem and we want to make StreetDeck the enabling platform that allows other developers easily do the same thing for thier friends / family / customers.

        Where did you get the idea there is no support? Support is merely limited to certain issues right now. We said we don't yet support any other platform then our own and because of the BETA status of the software, there may be things that don't work as expected on our own hardware right now, but will definitly be fixed in the near future. The only thing we won't support in the future with StreetDeck as a software only product is platform specific issues. We will garuntee that StreetDeck will run with the hardware we sell. However, when we sell it standalone as software, if you put it on an AMD geode based motherboard and it doesn't run since there is no Direct 3D support, don't expect us to do anything, but if you find a bug that effects the core product, like restarting instead of hibernating when the hibernate command is issued, then we will fix it regardless of how you got your hands on the product. Unlike the free software on this forum, we have a commercial interest to make sure it isn't broken. Anyone remember mediacar? Frodo, missing you much. Writing code is fun, but maintainence sucks. I know I wouldn't want to give up all my free time to support a free product years after its release and still have to work a day job to pay the bills. StreetDeck is my day job. As long as software keeps selling, it will be supported by someone.

        Streetdeck already has built in navigation. There is support for all of the US, Canada, and Mexico and with the final release there will be support for most of Europe. Seriously, we haven't forgotten about you fellas on the other side of the pond and will make StreetDeck available over there too. We have also been planning out the future of mapping support and have plans for getting support in for many other countries. Unfortunatly, we have gone to certain lengths to make sure you can't run any other desktop programs while you are driving for safety and usability reasons and this does limit our ability to support external programs in the way that the other free packages do, but will help us get certified by various governments once we get everything up to spec in the final release version.

        Obviously, we do have a commercial interest. There is money to be made from computers in cars and its only a matter of time before a very large corporation gets involved and if that happens before mp3car is a household name, they will easily become a bigger car computer community and will not care nearly as much about the car computer roots. We at mp3car understand the value of open and uncensored forums and will always keep it that way and yes we will try to make money off of supporting the mp3car community, but this is good because as long as we can support ourselves, we can keep the forums up and running smoothly.

        Most of the concerns mentioned here seem to be about what ifs, not what we actually do now. We already use mp3car as a commerical venture, we know how to make money off it and how things are now is how we will continue to do things. StreetDeck.com is StreetDeck.com and not mp3car.com/StreetDeck for this reason. We don't see more value in further advertising and we do put alot of thought into how not to pollute the forums with the ways we make money. If you have any comments of how what we already do now hurts the community, not so much how it potentially could, we would love to hear from you and try to improve.

        As to who works for mp3car, I think most of us already do now have icons. I just recently became an employee under StreetDeck.com and switch my icon when I did. I use to be just a regular mp3car user and then supplier to mp3car and have been working in some way or other with the founders for some time. We are in a transition phase of who works for what now, but we will try and get more appopriate labels as we figure this out ourselves.
        StreetDeck.com Developer (I am Chuck)
        Get StreetDeck at http://www.streetdeck.com
        The Official StreetDeck Forums have moved, please visit us at http://www.streetdeck.com/forum for official support for Streetdeck.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by god_of_cpu
          ccsnet, why are you a member of mp3car and making posts while advertising for a directly competing forum?
          What the hell are you going on about man, directly competing, i didn't realise it was a competion.


          2Fast's Tumbleweed - Spag bol's Tumbleweed - 2Fast's site

          Comment


          • #7
            god_of_cpu,

            I've been a board lurker so to speak more than a contributor and I too am a developer. Your response was very professional and well thought out. It leaves only one thought from a dev stand point. I myself would be afraid of collaborating on new and exciting programs only to find it embedded in streetdeck. Now, I suppose...any commercial company could scan any forum for ideas and trade secrets but at the moment "conflict of interest" still seems to be the issue. I could invest hours and 1000's of lines in collaboration using these forums and when I want to come back to reference it, you could (mp3car) could take it down and have 100% copy and patends.

            I guess the question really falls on the users (developers) in these forums. Do you want to continue sharing your ideas with the knowledge that intellectual property ownership lies with mp3car/streetdeck? Just thoughts.

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by god_of_cpu
              Hmmm, conflict of interest, ccsnet, why are you a member of mp3car and making posts while advertising for a directly competing forum?
              I never saw it as a competing forum. For me it complements it nicely by being a place where we can talk about UK meets, issues that are uk specific and talk about suppliers in the uk which is vital as a lot of stuff seems to be a harder to get hold of here than in the US (Why that is banned on here when it is hugely impractical to import from the US, I don't know?). MP3car is excellent for more general technical stuff though.

              In any case, if we were going to close the software development forums it would have been done a long time ago. We are not going to do that, we don't see any point to that. The software forum will never close. This is a public forum and will always be that way. StreetDeck is actually trying to be a separate entity from Mp3car and as time goes on, the two ventures will become more and more separate.
              Well if you had done that then everyone would move to a different forum and you'd have no customers! You would sneakily do it while all the time saying that you had no intention of doing it. So you can see why people seeing the trend in commercialisation might be worried.


              Tipastar raises an interesting point. As well as what he mentioned how are you going to decide what software has a place on mp3car? Are you going to allow all products or are you going to ban other commercial products, and if that is the case then where will you draw the line between what is simply covering dev costs and what is fully commercial?

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by ElKeeed
                I never saw it as a competing forum. For me it complements it nicely by being a place where we can talk about UK meets, issues that are uk specific and talk about suppliers in the uk which is vital as a lot of stuff seems to be a harder to get hold of here than in the US (Why that is banned on here when it is hugely impractical to import from the US, I don't know?). MP3car is excellent for more general technical stuff though.



                Well if you had done that then everyone would move to a different forum and you'd have no customers! You would sneakily do it while all the time saying that you had no intention of doing it. So you can see why people seeing the trend in commercialisation might be worried.


                Tipastar raises an interesting point. As well as what he mentioned where do you draw the line as to what software has a place on mp3car, are you going to ban other commercial products, and if that is the case then where will you draw the line between what is simply covering dev costs and what is fully commercial?
                I agree with you 100% Elkeeed
                2Fast's Tumbleweed - Spag bol's Tumbleweed - 2Fast's site

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by Enforcer
                  Thinking . . . . . . .
                  Does it hurt Enforcer??? You're doing a hell of a lot of it!

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Slippery slope.
                    That is why people are talking about what ifs. Certain things said, imply other things, not yet said or done.
                    It's reading between the lines, based on what we do know.

                    And comments about forum competition do nothing but hurt your cause and credibility, IMHO.

                    It's clear that streetdeck would never have gone anywhere without the existence of these forums. If it weren't advertised here, then where? We all understand the commercial nature of the store, and for the most part accept it as it's what pays for this forum. But censorship has been in place at least as long as I've been here. If it's deemed to hurt Mp3 sales, it usually doesn't last too long. Anyone remember trying to help a newbie on a budget, and directing him/her to logicsupply? (Or L-o-g-i-c-s-u-p-p-l-y as it was usually typed, to get past the filter) How about the motorized screens? FM radio solution? Alot of people have had to tip-toe around already. Is it really that far fetched to believe that competing freeware may no longer be welcome here? Or perhaps only the ones deemed non threatening.
                    0l33l
                    I think tipastar and ElKeeed raise some very interesting points. Along with some others not yet mentioned here. To reiterate, I see this as a very slippery slope, a few false steps is all it would take, and mp3car could lose a lot. I don't think any of us want to see that happen.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      GodofCPU.... a couple of points...

                      Hmmm, conflict of interest, ccsnet, why are you a member of mp3car and making posts while advertising for a directly competing forum? In any case, we still love and miss you ccsnet and wish you would spend more of your time with us
                      Conflict no... I have always gone on record saying that DC was the local community where as MP3car was the international one.... its for this reason I am concerned as I value its contribution.

                      Missed me... where have I been ? I think you find I post pretty regular in My Thred, Roadrunner, and Freedrive.b

                      StreetDeck is actually trying to be a separate entity from Mp3car and as time goes on, the two ventures will become more and more separate
                      Why has it got its own section then and not part of the Front end area ?

                      How are we pushing our own products?
                      As above as an example...

                      We also talk to the other developers and would love to have them work with StreetDeck and pay them for thier time or find other ways of working together that can be mutually beneficial
                      That sounds good but you also said in another post...

                      There will be a Developer Edition released soon for mp3car users though without hardware. We have not established pricing or requirements for it, but it will be marketed only to developers. This means no support for platform specific issues and limited distribution.
                      So you'll charge them but pay them at the same time ? ( Sorry OT )

                      I know alot of you see the commercialization of car computers as taking something away from the eliteness of it
                      Sorry - disagree there .... its like any thing else its just a git to do.

                      Where did you get the idea there is no support?
                      Well if this is the case I suggest you look at the wording on the MP3car shop page where the sentence starts...
                      The software has no warranty...
                      ... how ever I have seen a statment which I cant find now which did say the was currently no support for any thing else bar the hardware because it was beta.

                      I know I wouldn't want to give up all my free time to support a free product years after its release and still have to work a day job to pay the bills
                      I dont think people do expect this... and thats the chance you take

                      Obviously, we do have a commercial interest. There is money to be made from computers in cars and its only a matter of time before a very large corporation gets involved
                      Errr.. MS and Fiat.... 6 months or so ago...

                      We at mp3car understand the value of open and uncensored forums
                      So how come I and others have had mails re removing my sig links and other times links to Digital-car.co.uk ? ( See an example attached mail )

                      we do put alot of thought into how not to pollute the forums with the ways we make money
                      Errr... keywords... ie Via ?

                      As to who works for mp3car, I think most of us already do now have icons. I just recently became an employee under StreetDeck.com and switch my icon when I did. I use to be just a regular mp3car user and then supplier to mp3car and have been working in some way or other with the founders for some time. We are in a transition phase of who works for what now, but we will try and get more appopriate labels as we figure this out ourselves.
                      That would be helpfull - FLAC does not really help as any one can change an Avatar... I'm sure the mods can do some thing... they did for me.

                      I do have to agree with tipastar though, I give my good ideas ( when I have them ) to non commercial software because its for the good of the community and not that some one will profit, again this is what I mean by conflict.

                      IMHO,

                      Seperate the commercial stuff out, treat it just the same.... if you want to advertise then do that... there is a big space for adverts at the top of this forum which I am sure no one will object to ( in the same way the shop is seprate ). What I do feel is wrong is making it part of this forum unless you want it to loose its indipenance and get a reputation of been a place where you are bombarded by MP3car products.. ( and yes I relise you've got to make money but think how you feel when a door to door sales man calls at your front door... )

                      Let me just re stress - I say all of this out of concern for this community - MP3car has its place in the international releme, I concerned that your commercial ventures ( which I welcome ) are going to compramise this forums reputation due to massive confilcts of intrest and commercial profit and simpley wish to point this out now to help. I do support MP3car selling eqipment and sevices and I do support the forum, I simpley think they should be treated sepratly and equally as to any thing else.

                      Remember ... comercially MP3car is a brand and not the forum.

                      Terran

                      ----- Forwarded message from -----
                      Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:42:56 +0000
                      From:
                      Reply-To:
                      Subject: RE: Link to UK Forum
                      To: "Robert D. Wray" <[email protected]>

                      Robert,

                      Ok before I move on I wish to say I still feel Mp3car is not appriatly placed
                      for addressing international needs as well as EU and more... if you did raise a
                      UK section what other areas woudl you support - there are many I can think of.

                      Now let me address some of the points in your email -

                      "I understand your points. I guess sometimes we are slow about picking up on
                      things. - 18 Months plus ?"
                      Thats slow - and I am aware of others will you be contacting them ? If so what
                      is the scope ? There are many local forums and sites that are linked to from
                      peoples sigs ?

                      "My main concern is the duplication of a lot of technical data, diluting the
                      overall community, and miscommunication about European meets"
                      AMIEE is based in the UK for example - how dulited do you think it will be on DC
                      - further more DC is for UK members not EU ( this bit has changed a little since writing ) so there will be no dilution of that
                      infomation - that does not say that DC does not welecome all members and in
                      fact there are regular members from all over inc a couple of your mods.

                      "I believe that in order to create more open standards in OEM vehicle production
                      we should work together on a unified front." - That may be but DC is about a
                      local group of people chatting and helping each other... it has no other real
                      aims and certainly is not commercial in the same way Mp3car is... if any thing
                      DC has a more relaxed enviroment and a diffrent set of goals which again
                      enhanced Mp3cars more international status. Further more links to Mp3car are
                      not stopped on that basis.

                      "Perhaps I can talk to ziplock about making you a moderator of a UK section.
                      Would that be something that would interest you?"
                      I would have to say no for a number of reasons...

                      1) I dont belive it is the right place nor would the same needs that DC gives be
                      served
                      2) I was a former mod ( I am again while I perform its current upgrade project ) on Dc and therefore a conflict of intrest would occur -
                      the reason I am not now is for personal reasons as well as more indpendant
                      reasons for when I am writing... which I would be happy to do for your selves
                      for the same nominal fee I revceive else where.
                      3) I have to say I do not belive that you would have offered me this possible
                      position if we had not had this convo

                      Once again - please advise me as to what you need me to do...

                      Terran

                      Quoting "Robert D. Wray" <[email protected]>:

                      > I understand your points. I guess sometimes we are slow about picking
                      > up on things.
                      >
                      > My main concern is the duplication of a lot of technical data, diluting
                      > the overall community, and miscommunication about European meets. I
                      > believe that in order to create more open standards in OEM vehicle
                      > production we should work together on a unified front. Perhaps I can
                      > talk to ziplock about making you a moderator of a UK section. Would
                      > that be something that would interest you?
                      >
                      > -Rob
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: [mailto:
                      >
                      > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:43 PM
                      > To: Robert D. Wray
                      > Subject: Re: Link to UK Forum
                      >
                      > Ok - so considering its been there for over 18 months what has changed ?
                      > The
                      > very fact in my numerous interviews and articles that I have written I
                      > have
                      > always publised Mp3car been the 'International' site and DC been the Uk
                      > local
                      > one I felt was correct - in the same vain that is why I placed that link
                      > there
                      > for the UK people.

                      >
                      > I know I am not the only one with such links and not just to DC so are
                      > you going
                      > to enforce the same rule with them ?
                      >
                      > If you still wish me to remove it please let me know how ever don't
                      > expect the
                      > same amount of publicity I give now to be given as freely as before...
                      > and if
                      > you don't belive me see my site you will see where I have appeared.
                      >
                      > Terran
                      >
                      > ( Another free publicity example -
                      > http://www.vvoc.com/forum/showpost.p...8&postcount=13 )
                      >
                      > Quoting "Robert D. Wray" <[email protected]>:
                      >
                      > > Would you kindly remove the link to the UK forum from your signature?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -Rob
                      My Project Site

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Originally posted by Gobby
                        Does it hurt Enforcer??? You're doing a hell of a lot of it!
                        Its age.... but I spose like you he is a developer and has to consider what has been said on all sides..

                        Terran
                        My Project Site

                        Comment

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