Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

odd inverter behavior

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • odd inverter behavior

    I've had my system working pretty good, with the amp remote turn on lead attached to the radio switched 12v and the inverter attached to the cigarette lighter circuit.

    When I turn on the accessory line, the computer and amp start up fine.

    I just added some switches (
    switch schematic), one for the amp remote turn on and one for the inverter.

    The amp remote turn on works great. However when I turn on the inverter power, the inverter lets out a pitched whine. No wires get hot, the computer does not get power, the power switch on the inverter does not illuminate.

    If I toggle the power switch on the inverter, after a few times it'll turn on without whining. The inverter power switch light will illuminate and the computer will go. But if I flip the switch I installed, no matter how many times I flip it, the inverter always whines and doesn't start up.

    What could be going on? It's a simple switch. 12v from the lighter circuit (supply), line to the inverter (load) and line to ground (earth).

    I never experienced this problem before the new switch. It's odd how flipping the inverter power switch (and only that switch) a few times will cause it to operate normally. Ideas?
    Player: Celeron II 633MHz, 256MB RAM, 20GB IBM 9mm 2.5" Laptop HD (180G/2ms), onboard ethernet/sound/video/tvout, 10"11"x3" case, MPBS1 70W DC-DC PS w/auto-shutdown controller, in-dash lighted switches, 7" NTSC TFT widescreen in-dash LCD, touchscreen, rear-window brake light installed Garmin GPS35 GPS, credit card sized IR remote w/IRMan, mini-wireless keyboard/mouse (sits under seat), PowerMate black knob, MP3s and GPS Navigation (Winamp, CoPilot, SA8.0).
    Car: 1993 Nissan Maxima, Black Emerald

  • #2
    I have a switch on mine, and it whines too. I have no idea what causes it. If it doesn't start up, I flip it off, wait a sec, then turn it back on, and everything works.
    www.arbybean.com

    Comment


    • #3
      I have a sima inverter, and it makes the beeping noise. After experimenting with mine and one of my friend's, i found that the car engine has to be running for 4-5 seconds before you can turn on the inverter from the switch, else it beeps the overload beep. I think this has to do with either the capacitors in the inverter needing to be charged up, or the fact that the car alternator needs to be running at speed to provide the current needed by the inverter. Either way, you need some sort of delay switch. You could probably buy a delay switch from some electronics supply, or do what I am doing, mount a remote switch on your front panel that sets off a relay to power on the inverter. The advantage of this is you can turn off your computer if you are not listening to it (I leave it off when i'm not in the car because there are other people who drive my car.)
      http://james.crasta.com/mp3car/
      [email protected]

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for the tip guys. I'll give a try while driving.
        Player: Celeron II 633MHz, 256MB RAM, 20GB IBM 9mm 2.5" Laptop HD (180G/2ms), onboard ethernet/sound/video/tvout, 10"11"x3" case, MPBS1 70W DC-DC PS w/auto-shutdown controller, in-dash lighted switches, 7" NTSC TFT widescreen in-dash LCD, touchscreen, rear-window brake light installed Garmin GPS35 GPS, credit card sized IR remote w/IRMan, mini-wireless keyboard/mouse (sits under seat), PowerMate black knob, MP3s and GPS Navigation (Winamp, CoPilot, SA8.0).
        Car: 1993 Nissan Maxima, Black Emerald

        Comment


        • #5
          To cure all inverter problems, switch to a DC-DC converter.
          Player: Pentium 166MMX, Amptron 598LMR MB w/onboard Sound, Video, LAN, 10.2 Gig Fujitsu Laptop HD, Arise 865 DC-DC Converter, Lexan Case, Custom Software w/Voice Interface, MS Access Based Playlists
          Car: 1986 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (highly modded), 1978 RX-7 Beater (Dead, parting out), 2001 Honda Insight
          "If one more body-kitted, cut-spring-lowered, farty-exhausted Civic revs on me at an intersection, I swear I'm going to get out of my car and cram their ridiculous double-decker aluminium wing firmly up their rump."

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm gonna switch hopefully. I have 3 plugins that need to be resolved first. Once I get my other stuff in, it will be 5 plugs.

            The computer shouldn't be a big problem. I do get low noise from the inverter at max volume. It's the actual inverter, nothing else causing it.

            One of these days I will switch. But for now I have no choice but to use one.

            Comment


            • #7
              The switched worked without problem while driving. Thanks.

              As for a DC-DC power supply, it'd be nice but in the long run it'd end up beng a lot more work and only a little benefit for me.

              I barely get any noise on my setup, with just grounds (I could probably ground them even better, really). The noise is so faint that even at high volume with no music playing, I can't hear it while the engine is running.
              Player: Celeron II 633MHz, 256MB RAM, 20GB IBM 9mm 2.5" Laptop HD (180G/2ms), onboard ethernet/sound/video/tvout, 10"11"x3" case, MPBS1 70W DC-DC PS w/auto-shutdown controller, in-dash lighted switches, 7" NTSC TFT widescreen in-dash LCD, touchscreen, rear-window brake light installed Garmin GPS35 GPS, credit card sized IR remote w/IRMan, mini-wireless keyboard/mouse (sits under seat), PowerMate black knob, MP3s and GPS Navigation (Winamp, CoPilot, SA8.0).
              Car: 1993 Nissan Maxima, Black Emerald

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, it sounds as if you didn't run thick enough wires for your inverter.
                I have a 600watt PortaWatz, and I actually ran 4 gauge wire straight to my battery.
                I know the Portawatz brand is supposed to beep when it can't draw enough electric.
                Clarion 200watt head unit w/ Aux in.
                Kicker 800watt 4 channel amp
                In a 96 Grand Prix SE.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I wire I ran is more than thick enough. The problem was what Arby and Crast suggested. The engine needs to be running or the inverter won't turn on reliably.

                  My inverter doesn't need to wait a few seconds after the engine has started -- the engine just needs to start.

                  My switches are working great now.
                  Player: Celeron II 633MHz, 256MB RAM, 20GB IBM 9mm 2.5" Laptop HD (180G/2ms), onboard ethernet/sound/video/tvout, 10"11"x3" case, MPBS1 70W DC-DC PS w/auto-shutdown controller, in-dash lighted switches, 7" NTSC TFT widescreen in-dash LCD, touchscreen, rear-window brake light installed Garmin GPS35 GPS, credit card sized IR remote w/IRMan, mini-wireless keyboard/mouse (sits under seat), PowerMate black knob, MP3s and GPS Navigation (Winamp, CoPilot, SA8.0).
                  Car: 1993 Nissan Maxima, Black Emerald

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jshrieve:
                    As for a DC-DC power supply, it'd be nice but in the long run it'd end up beng a lot more work and only a little benefit for me.
                    How's that again? Let see, to use a DC-DC converter:

                    -get DC-DC (Arise, etc.)
                    -swap existing power supply
                    -connect 2 wires
                    -throw out inverter, say "good bye" to noise

                    Complicated, eh?

                    Benefits?
                    -more stable
                    -more efficient
                    -smaller
                    -produces less heat
                    -no noisy fan
                    -will run for hours with the car off
                    -will run while the car is being started
                    -no noise

                    Disadvantages?
                    -Uh, cost ($75)
                    Player: Pentium 166MMX, Amptron 598LMR MB w/onboard Sound, Video, LAN, 10.2 Gig Fujitsu Laptop HD, Arise 865 DC-DC Converter, Lexan Case, Custom Software w/Voice Interface, MS Access Based Playlists
                    Car: 1986 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (highly modded), 1978 RX-7 Beater (Dead, parting out), 2001 Honda Insight
                    "If one more body-kitted, cut-spring-lowered, farty-exhausted Civic revs on me at an intersection, I swear I'm going to get out of my car and cram their ridiculous double-decker aluminium wing firmly up their rump."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If everyone lives in your cookie cutter world, then yes, DC-DC would always be incredibly convenient and without any downsides.

                      -swap existing power supply
                      Nifty trick, considering I have a tiny non-standard formfactor power supply.

                      No, I don't want to have to take apart the Arise to rearrange the components to fit, if they'd fit at all.

                      Complicated, eh?
                      I didn't say 'complicated'. I said 'more work and little benefit to me'.

                      Work: either building or disasembling DC-DC power supply, to make it fit within the space I want it to fit.

                      DC-DC power supply?
                      More stable? No. My inverter is 100% stable.
                      More efficient? Yes, but irrelevant, since I have 85+ amps from my alternator to waste (40+ at city stop and go rates, higher at freeway)
                      Smaller? No. Not without disassembling and rearranging. BIGGER. The inverter about equalizes the space, but the inverter doesn't have to be physically with the computer and can thus be tucked away somewhere more convenient.
                      Produces less heat? Yes, but irrelevant. I don't live in Texas. The temperature here never rises above 72F or drops below 42F.
                      Will run for hours with car off: Okay, and why am I going to sit in my car for hours with it off? My inverter setup runs fine for 30+ minutes on the battery, I'll not need more than that.
                      Will run while car is being started: So will the inverter. Both solutions fail if your starter motor causes the voltage to drop too low.
                      No noise? I don't get any with my inverter.

                      So.
                      Relevant DC-DC benefits:
                      None, except a squishy feel good feeling about being more efficient.

                      Relevant disadvantages:
                      Larger.
                      Requires either building a PS or taking apart one to try and make it fit in the smaller AC-DC PS case.
                      Double or more the cost of the inverter.
                      Can't plug other devices into it when necessary.
                      Can't easily unplug the computers without making a special plug or using a screwdriver.
                      Takes a little longer to replace if anything should happen to it.

                      DC-DC supply has several 'benefits' which are nice but they don't have any practical effect on me. But it has several major disadvantages for my application.

                      I don't deny that for many applications a DC-DC supply is better than an inverter, but not all applications are the same, so don't be a bum and try to suggest the same solution as being the best for all problems.
                      Player: Celeron II 633MHz, 256MB RAM, 20GB IBM 9mm 2.5" Laptop HD (180G/2ms), onboard ethernet/sound/video/tvout, 10"11"x3" case, MPBS1 70W DC-DC PS w/auto-shutdown controller, in-dash lighted switches, 7" NTSC TFT widescreen in-dash LCD, touchscreen, rear-window brake light installed Garmin GPS35 GPS, credit card sized IR remote w/IRMan, mini-wireless keyboard/mouse (sits under seat), PowerMate black knob, MP3s and GPS Navigation (Winamp, CoPilot, SA8.0).
                      Car: 1993 Nissan Maxima, Black Emerald

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jshrieve:
                        If everyone lives in your cookie cutter world, then yes, DC-DC would always be incredibly convenient and without any downsides.
                        My "cookie cutter world"? Don't exactly know what that means. I don't want to get into the old "DC-DC Vs. Inverter" wars, but here goes.

                        Nifty trick, considering I have a tiny non-standard formfactor power supply.
                        I don't know if you've seen the Arise supply or not (some pictures at http://www.aaroncake.net/projects/mp3player.htm ), but it is not a standard form factor. I don't know how big your supply is, but odds are the Arise supply is about the same size if you run your supply without a case and fan. Oh, and the Arise produces very little heat, so a fan is not necessary. One more part that can't fail.

                        I didn't say 'complicated'. I said 'more work and little benefit to me'.
                        I had assumed that by "more work" you meant more complicated. That is the usual response.

                        Work: either building or disasembling DC-DC power supply, to make it fit within the space I want it to fit.
                        I haven't seen a picture of your space, but I would hazard a guess that the Arise supply will fit. Especially when you eliminate the large, bulky inverter.

                        More stable? No. My inverter is 100% stable.
                        Measure the output with a scope. Not that it matters. DC-DC is more thermally stable, and produces a stable output.

                        More efficient? Yes, but irrelevant, since I have 85+ amps from my alternator to waste (40+ at city stop and go rates, higher at freeway)
                        Well, it does waste a small amount of gas, but more important is having the power available for other stuff, and not stressing the alternator with a 5A draw. The DC-DC idles around 1.3A.

                        Smaller? No. Not without disassembling and rearranging. BIGGER. The inverter about equalizes the space, but the inverter doesn't have to be physically with the computer and can thus be tucked away somewhere more convenient.
                        Sort of covered this above.

                        [quote]
                        Produces less heat? Yes, but irrelevant. I don't live in Texas. [quote]

                        With less heat, you don't need a fan.

                        Will run while car is being started: So will the inverter. Both solutions fail if your starter motor causes the voltage to drop too low.
                        The DC-DC runs down to 8V. The inverter stops at 11 or 10?

                        No noise? I don't get any with my inverter.
                        You're lucky. Most people do.

                        Running with the car off...paraphrased as it was lost in original quote
                        There are many circumstances when you would want to run the player with the car off. To provide toons while washing it, updating software, copying new MP3s, working on the car, demonstrations, leaving it on while at the mall so you don't have to wait for boot, etc.

                        Larger.
                        Requires either building a PS or taking apart one to try and make it fit in the smaller AC-DC PS case.
                        Not really.

                        Double or more the cost of the inverter.
                        But only slightly more then the cost of both the inverter and the standard PS.

                        Can't plug other devices into it when necessary.
                        True.

                        Can't easily unplug the computers without making a special plug or using a screwdriver.
                        I don't get that one. Just use any number of standard connectors to plug into. Even a cigarrette lighter can be used.

                        Takes a little longer to replace if anything should happen to it.
                        True. But odds are that nothing will happen to it. The Arise DC-DC is manufactured to industrial specifications. PC power supplies are made as cheaply as possible.

                        I don't deny that for many applications a DC-DC supply is better than an inverter, but not all applications are the same, so don't be a bum and try to suggest the same solution as being the best for all problems.
                        I don't particularily appreciate being called a "bum". I was simply trying to provide assistance. The DC-DC is best for most, but not all. We don't know the specifics of your setup, so providing a solution that will perfectly fit you is impossible.
                        Player: Pentium 166MMX, Amptron 598LMR MB w/onboard Sound, Video, LAN, 10.2 Gig Fujitsu Laptop HD, Arise 865 DC-DC Converter, Lexan Case, Custom Software w/Voice Interface, MS Access Based Playlists
                        Car: 1986 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (highly modded), 1978 RX-7 Beater (Dead, parting out), 2001 Honda Insight
                        "If one more body-kitted, cut-spring-lowered, farty-exhausted Civic revs on me at an intersection, I swear I'm going to get out of my car and cram their ridiculous double-decker aluminium wing firmly up their rump."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think what irritated him (and me sometimes as well) is that whenever someone asks a question about an inverter problem someone always jumps in with 'just buy a DC-DC'..

                          Thats great, I agree.. DC-DC is much more efficient but maybe they require the inverter for running other devices as well. I use an inverter myself, mostly because I refuse to spend ~$200USD on a ATX DC-DC power supply. Call me cheap or whatever you will, but thats a lot of money. If you can afford it, great. If you can't, use an inverter. Most people who post these questions seem to know about DC-DC but prefer the 'quick and dirty' method of an inverter. You can get perfectly acceptable perfomance and sound with an inverter. It really does depend on the quality of the inverter used and the installation of course.

                          I think a lot of the regulars (myself included) jump down new users throats when they post something that has been seen a bunch of times before. Oh well, thats just my two cents.
                          MP3 Cavalier - http://www.mp3cavalier.com
                          MP3 Grand Prix - http://www.mp3gp.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Callahan:
                            I think what irritated him (and me sometimes as well) is that whenever someone asks a question about an inverter problem someone always jumps in with 'just buy a DC-DC'..
                            Well, one of the reasons I suggest that is because I am one for really finding the "right" way to do things. For example, why spend $300 on brakes that last for 2 years when you can spend $1200 and have it done right the first time, lasting for 10 years.

                            To me, converting 12V up to 120 (or 240) then to 120 (or 240) VDC, and then back down to 12V/5V is just plain dumb. Not only inefficient, but also a huge waste of parts and a lot of unnecessary complication.

                            Thats great, I agree.. DC-DC is much more efficient but maybe they require the inverter for running other devices as well. I use an inverter myself, mostly because I refuse to spend ~$200USD on a ATX DC-DC power supply. Call me cheap or whatever you will, but thats a lot of money.
                            I can certainly understand the difference in cost between the two, and if you have to operate other devices that's fine. I appreciate that some people don't want to spend a lot of money.

                            I think a lot of the regulars (myself included) jump down new users throats when they post something that has been seen a bunch of times before. Oh well, thats just my two cents.
                            Maybe that's why I keep suggesting people get DC-DC converters....I'm tired of seeing the same old inverter questions...

                            For what it's worth, I am right in the middle of being kicked in the butt with the not "doing it right the first time" thing. My player's HD is failing. It is a standard desktop drive. If I had originally went with my gut instinct and installed a laptop drive for a little more money, I would have never had this problem...Oh well...
                            Player: Pentium 166MMX, Amptron 598LMR MB w/onboard Sound, Video, LAN, 10.2 Gig Fujitsu Laptop HD, Arise 865 DC-DC Converter, Lexan Case, Custom Software w/Voice Interface, MS Access Based Playlists
                            Car: 1986 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (highly modded), 1978 RX-7 Beater (Dead, parting out), 2001 Honda Insight
                            "If one more body-kitted, cut-spring-lowered, farty-exhausted Civic revs on me at an intersection, I swear I'm going to get out of my car and cram their ridiculous double-decker aluminium wing firmly up their rump."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Aaron,

                              I did not mean to 'turn it into an inverter vs DC-DC war'. I got the feeling that that is what you wanted and were attempting to do, when you responded to a thread that was about inverters, with "stop using that, and switch to my solution" which was in my opinion, completely unproductive. To me, it appeared to just be a troll.

                              I think Linux is vastly better for almost all of the mp3s players. But I don't jump into every thread that has a question about Windows car mp3s and start arguing about why they should be using Linux.

                              I was offended by what I perceive as a pointless post.

                              As for your response, the inverter vs DC-DC argument is pretty much pointless... but I must stand by what I said. The DC-DC is a nicer solution in theory but that doesn't mean in that's it's better for all situations in a real world. I stand by my position that for my situation, an inverter is better. None of the points you most recently made in reply to my message actually change any of those points -- they're still all true.

                              Next time, please don't jump into threads on one topic with a troll for a different (competing) solution. It's very difficult for someone to read these forums regularly without already knowing the advantages and disadvantages of DC-DC.

                              And I'll try not to jump down the throats of people who make such posts, as pointless (imo) as they are.
                              Player: Celeron II 633MHz, 256MB RAM, 20GB IBM 9mm 2.5" Laptop HD (180G/2ms), onboard ethernet/sound/video/tvout, 10"11"x3" case, MPBS1 70W DC-DC PS w/auto-shutdown controller, in-dash lighted switches, 7" NTSC TFT widescreen in-dash LCD, touchscreen, rear-window brake light installed Garmin GPS35 GPS, credit card sized IR remote w/IRMan, mini-wireless keyboard/mouse (sits under seat), PowerMate black knob, MP3s and GPS Navigation (Winamp, CoPilot, SA8.0).
                              Car: 1993 Nissan Maxima, Black Emerald

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X