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  • Processor for 250W power supply & overheating

    This thread actually started under "Store for Comp Hardware " Summary:

    -Athlon XP will NOT run stably on 250W power. Duron may also be unhappy.

    -P4 has built in clock throttling for preventing heat self destruct. P3... well we've had different stories on that.

    Will P4 run off 250W supply?

    Does P3 have regulation and will it run off 250W supply?

    Does it help if you don't run other components off the supply (dvd, screen, etc)?


    Please post if you know about the heat & power supply issues of these processors. I'm trying to pick a processor for a Keypower 250W DCDC ATX with great performance- cost isn't really the issue.
    1998 Infiniti QX4

  • #2
    I looked up Dell specs and my new 8200 series P4 1.8ghz uses a 250W supply. So I'm guessing that a Keypower ATX 250W would comfortably run either a P3 or P4? What about the overheating regulation, etc?
    1998 Infiniti QX4

    Comment


    • #3
      Ok - here's the breakdown on overheating as per Tom's Hardware:

      P3's -do- have an overheating circuit, but it does NOT downshift the clock speed in order to keep the pc running. It just shuts off.

      P4's have the best heat management and will clock down when overheating.

      Athlons (1.0Ghz or newer, sic) Do have an overheating circuit and will clock down in speed when overheating. HOWEVER, the circuitry is not supported by all motherboards, AND the circuitry itself is not fast enough to react to the HSF falling off of the processor. On www.tomshardware.com their Athlon literally exploded.

      My reccomendation would be to get a new-ish model Coppermine P3 (FCPGA) processor in the 900 range and clock it down to 750 or so to lower power consumption and heat.

      Yes, the Dell computer uses a 250w PSU for their P4 computer, but you might be pushing the limits of the keypower if you try to drive a P4 1.8Ghz, 7200RPM drive (very power hungry), DVD drive, off-board sound, and everything else you're trying... I can almost guarantee that you'll need a seperate PSU for the LCD screen if you pack your system that full.

      oh yeah - beware the heat dissapation on hot days. People on here have been having trouble with their systems staying cool in a sun-baked car.

      Comment


      • #4
        I just said all of that in his other thread :P And actually, there are a number of 250w psu's that will power a 1800+ (sayeth AMD). It all has to do with the quality of the power produced. You can find the lengthy list of psu's that amd's tested on their website under tech specs. Keypower isnt listed anywhere (suprise suprise, considering how hard it is to get amd to test from what i hear). Me being a cheap bastard, i usually go for the cheapest route possible, which would be a 1ghz duron or celly or lower.
        -Nick

        _____________________________
        Since when is insanity a bad thing?
        www.mp3vw.com

        Comment


        • #5
          A 933 P3 costs $112 at newegg.com and a 1.6A P4 costs $132! Even the crapiest Celeron is like $75, so if the P4 will run off the 250W I want to use one.

          The P4 heat protection sounds great- but is there a way that I can underclock it all the time, like run a 1.6A at 1.4 just to lower power and temperature? I've been looking all over the net on this one and not surprisingly there are fewer people interested in decreasing the speed of their processor!
          1998 Infiniti QX4

          Comment


          • #6
            What do you think of this?

            10.4" CTX Touchscreen (hopefully, no response)
            Keypower 250W DC-DC Power

            This is the list of other components from newegg:

            DVD ROM
            PIONEER INTERNAL ATAPI 16X DVD-ROM MODEL 106S - OEM, DRIVE ONLY SLOT load 16X DVD/40X CD-ROM, 256k buffer 95ms DVD-Rom High-Speed Average Access Time 80ms CD-ROM access time. High-Speed Average Access Time -95ms DVD-ROM -80 ms CD-ROM. Reads single and dual layer DVD-ROM/Video, -R/RW, CD-ROM, Audio CDs, CD-R/RW, Video CDs, Photo CDs, Hybrid CDs, CD-Extra (CD-Plus) and CD-Text Discs Horizontal or Vertical Mounting Capabilities - 106S N82E16827129103 $49.00 $49.00

            Hard Drives - IDE
            MAXTOR Quiet Drive 60GB 7200RPM Model # 6L060L3 - OEM, DRIVE ONLY DiamondMax PS D740X Plus Series Ultra ATA133/100, 2MB Cache Buffer, 3 Year Manufacturer Warranty QUIET DRIVE - "L" denotes Fluid Dynamic Bearing Motors N82E16822143110 $101.00 $101.00

            Memory - PC (RAMBUS)
            KINGSTON KVR800X16-16/256 RAMBUS 256MB 800MHZ NON-ECC - OEM Six Layer Requires Rambus RIMM supported motherboard. All Rambus must be used in pairs. N82E16820152001 $77.00 $154.00

            Motherboards - Intel
            MB P4 INTEL D850MVL PGA478 ATA/100 Retail ATX/ 4 RDRAM/ INTEGRATED Audio/ 5PC1/ 4 USB (2-F, 4-B, 1CNR)/ AGP/ CNR SUPPORT/ Come with Lan. 3 years limited warranty. N82E16813121130 $138.00 $138.00

            Processors - Intel Pentium 4
            Intel Pentium 4 1.6A GHz 512K Socket 478 Processor 400MHz Processor Bus- RETAIL version. With / Heatsin & Fan. N82E16819116136 $132.00 $132.00

            Video Cards
            ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 7500 64MB AGP Powered by the RADEON™ 7500 GPU,64MB DDR memory,Stereo TV-tuner,TV-ON-DEMAND™ Time shifting ,Integrated Interactive Program Guide,Easily capture and edit MPEG-2 video into your own creations,Radio-frequency remote control ,DVD video playback. BULK N82E16814102205 $147.00 $147.00


            Subtotal » $721.00
            1998 Infiniti QX4

            Comment


            • #7
              Shoping explicitly from newegg, and if you're set on the p4, my recomendations on the matter would be:

              Intel P4 1.6GHz Socket478 Retail 127
              Intel D845PTL PGA478 MATX DDR266 ATA/100 with LAN 132
              Crucial 256MB 32x64 PC 2100 DDR RAM 72
              Western Digital EIDE Hard Drive 60GB 7200RPM #WD600BB 102
              Pioneer 16X DVD-ROM MODEL 106S 49
              ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 7500 64MB AGP 147
              629

              DDR is still cheaper than RDRAM, and is barely slower while playing the most demanding games, so its completely transparent to a mp3 player. The motherboard is a matx motherboard, saving you space in what ever sized case you build. Cruical just makes damn good ram. The HD i have in my trunk is a 5400rpm 60gb WD, so they're in my favor at the moment. I'm guessing you picked the dvd because its slot loading, and if so, they're the ones to go with. The 7500 AIW is a lot of overkill for a mp3car setup, but its the only AIW newegg carrys. Im guessing you want to make use of its tv capabilities (if not, just get a cheaper agp card with tv out). You could probably find an original radeon aiw for a bit cheaper.

              The nice thing about having a box this powerful in your trunk is just borrow a monitor from someone, and you're ready to lan with a very powerful machine.

              Me being a cheap *** bastard (hence me liking amd ) id personally go with something like the following:

              AMD Duron 1.0 GHZ Socket A, 200FSB 39
              Gigabyte VIA KM266 GA-7VKML 87 87
              Thermaltake VOLCANO 6Cu+ HSF 12
              Crucial 256MB 32x64 PC 2100 DDR RAM 72
              Western Digital EIDE Hard Drive 60GB 7200RPM #WD600BB 102
              Pioneer 16X DVD-ROM MODEL 106S 49
              ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 7500 64MB AGP 147
              Total 508
              -Nick

              _____________________________
              Since when is insanity a bad thing?
              www.mp3vw.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the great advice! MicroATX seems better for size- does it run regular ATX power? Definately a better idea. I'd get a D850MD if they had it (also micro).

                I also noticed you were picking a cpu fan for your AMD choice- have any good recommendations for the P4 since I've found way fewer P4 fan comparisons on the net than AMD. I will be running an Altec 92mm smartfan for my case- temperature sensitive and pretty quiet.

                My thought on processor is get a Northwood over regular (1.6A not 1.6) since it has 0.13-micron and 512-KB L2 cache... $5 difference in price bumps performance a lot and has better potential for overclocking and cooling (though you'd be an idiot to overclock in your car).

                I don't understand why everybody is still talking about DDR being cheaper- um, 256 DDR is 5 dollars cheaper than RDRAM. I have PC800 RDRAM in my P4 1.8 desktop, so I'm trying to kind of match up components in case I screw up my car computer at any time I can always still use the memory ;-)

                I actually have a 60gb Maxtor in the trunk right now in my Neo with no problems, plus keeping the noise down with "quietdrive" is a great idea for car. WD is a good hard drive too though, same price.

                Slot load- yup. And I also like AMD, but the Athlon doesn't control its heat as well as the P3 or P4 which seems important in a car.

                ATI AIW 7500 comes with tv tuner and a remote... there are a few other threads about guys buyin the remote for $65 so I'd say the card is worth it ;-) Though the great graphics are overkill for a 10.4 4k color monitor.
                1998 Infiniti QX4

                Comment


                • #9
                  Does mATX use regular ATX power
                  yes.

                  Originally posted by infinitiqx4
                  The P4 heat protection sounds great- but is there a way that I can underclock it all the time, like run a 1.6A at 1.4 just to lower power and temperature? I've been looking all over the net on this one and not surprisingly there are fewer people interested in decreasing the speed of their processor!
                  The answer to that question would be a disappointing: NO

                  Why? Because Intel processors are all clock multiplier locked. Which means that the only way to change the clock speed of your processor is to lower the front-side bus speed, and since P4's require all new motherboards and "underclocking" is not a desired feature - motherboard makers do not include the option to run slower bus speeds in the BIOS.

                  Why P3/Celeron? It's been suggested that these processors are better suited for car-pc applications because they still have the flexibility to be underclocked. A P3-900 Coppermine core is a 100Mhz FSB processor running with a clock-multiplier of x9. Underclocking it would reduce it's front-side bus to 66Mhz (or somewhere in-between) so that it's now 66Mhz x 9, or 600Mhz running cool. In addition to that, it consumes less power, costs less and so you won't cry -quite- as much when you destroy it all because of that pothole in the road. We're not worried as much about up-front costs... Hell, we're putting full-fledged computers in our cars! We're looking for flexibility and durability. The new desktop hardware is really fragile.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ahhh, I tend to skim over things, which is where most of my inaccuracies came from . I thought that the 256mb of rdram was 154 a stick, and not two for 154. And 512 is really really overkill for a car (I've got 256 in mine and never come close to it). Same thing for the 1.6 vs 1.6a, I didnt pay enough attention to the newegg site to notice the difference. As far as p4 s478 hsf's go, most of the alternatives to the stock hsf aren't all that much better. If you do want a better than stock s478 heatsink, the aruka thermalintegration style coolers are supposed to be good i believe. The reason I spec'd one for the duron is that its an oem chip, meaning you get the bare chip, compared to the retail box for the p4. And about the liquid drive maxtor/quantums, its just that ive been hearing some not so good things about them recently (tho the source (hardforums) and fact that those who have problems complain loudly, while those who have working drives just sit and smile). And the difference between kingston ddr and rdram is a enourmous $7 . And all intel processors in recent memory have been processor locked, meaning you couldnt tell them to run at a higher multiplier, but I know for a fact that on p3's (dont have any p4's to play with ) that you could set a lower multiplier in the bios and have it run at that. So I would wager the same would hold true for a p4. And its true that the p3/p4's "control" their heat better (meaning a catastrophic heatsink failure probably wont kill one), but a amd/xp can run at higher die temperatures than the p3/p4's, but will let out the magic blue smoke if your cpu socket lugs ever snap.
                    -Nick

                    _____________________________
                    Since when is insanity a bad thing?
                    www.mp3vw.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1.6A and 512 ram make lots of sense for running DOS. I'm kidding. Though I wonder how fast this thing could boot with XP hehehe. I will certainly have some video games on it though, and these stats should have it beating the local idiots running Play Station 2 on their 7" widescreen flip-outs... with less cost too!

                      What is bad about the liquid Maxtor drives?

                      For some reason I enjoy being told I'm overkilling this thing... perhaps you think 160amp alternator, 2 optima batteries, and 16Farads capacitance is overkill too :-) Welcome to IASCA competition boys.
                      1998 Infiniti QX4

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'd actually love a 160amp alternator and two optima batteries (as my factory alternator and batteries are taking a beating). And I've just heard of a number failures with them as of late, as well as the last of the quantums that used the same technology. A 1.6a and 512 will make a nice desktop system, but you must remember that there are people here running mp3car setups on p166's. oh, and GIMME SOME MONEY PLEASE
                        -Nick

                        _____________________________
                        Since when is insanity a bad thing?
                        www.mp3vw.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          One thing to consider is that P4s require special power connectors that normal ATX supplies (like your Keypower) do not have. Take a look at this: http://www.intel.com/support/process...tm#PowerSupply
                          You will need to modify your Keypower supply if you wish to use it with a P4.
                          I agree with CrazyLittle. Since you're putting this in a car, think of durability before performance. I must say however that you're the first person I've seen who seems concerned with how many FPS they're getting playing Quake3 in the car
                          At some point, it's inevitable that something is going to break when you put it in a car, so look for stuff that's reliable and inexpensive. You mention underclocking the CPU to save power and heat, but there's easier thing to change in your setup to accomplish this. For example, 7200rpm drives require more power and generate more heat than 5400rpm drives. You could take this a step further and look at a laptop drive which runs entirely on 5V and generates much less heat, plus is far more durable (laptop drives are made to sustain shock and vibration).
                          Just some things to consider.
                          If I were buying entirely from Newegg, here's what I'd pick:
                          • CPU: P3 733 ($85)
                          • Hard Drive: Maxtor 60GB 5400rpm ($82)
                          • RAM: Legacy 256MB PC-133 ($59)
                          I'd stick with the video card and DVD drive you picked out. As for the motherboard, I didn't list one because Newegg does not have a decent mATX socket 370 board (all of theirs have onboard video and no AGP slot) so I'd go with something like this board at Compgeeks for $29: http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=M6VCF. I have one of these boards in my extra home PC and I think it's great for the price. 2 PCI slots, AGP slot and decent onboard sound (although you may want to go with a better add on card since sound looks like a priority for you).
                          The MB, CPU, hard drive and RAM I've picked total $255 vs. $525 for the ones you picked, plus the one I picked would be much easier to power in a car, would generate less heat and would require less power. Look at it this way: if you went with something like this and fried EVERYTHING, it's less than half the cost of what you were planning to spend so you can just replace it! Plus, the stuff I picked would be more than enough for MP3, DVD, DivX and games, especially given the video card you're considering.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hmm, valid point, because intel had fallen out of my favor (too damn expensive, tho the 1.6a looks temping on an 845d chipset) I had forgotten about the extra connector. Tyan makes a series of p4 boards that dont have/need the extra atx connector, tho I doubt they make a matx board (tyan being mostly server/workstation purposed boards).
                            -Nick

                            _____________________________
                            Since when is insanity a bad thing?
                            www.mp3vw.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              mtmsol- you are awesome

                              I did not notice the difference between ATX and ATX12V. You have completely saved my ***!

                              So this is the question now: a bunch of people have recommended CPUs like "Coppermine P3 (FCPGA) processor in the 900 range", what board and processor should I get? Things it should have:
                              -AGP slot for AWI graphics
                              -PCI slot for Turtle Beach Santra Cruz audio (or onboard must have good sound with game port)
                              -LAN (on board preferable)
                              -ATX power connector, microatx
                              -USB, Parallel, Serial, PS2, etc
                              -Ultra ATA 100 for hard drive
                              -support a fast newer P3 that is clockable

                              What is different about FCPGA? What is different about Coppermine?
                              1998 Infiniti QX4

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