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  • What benefits does RR have over CF?

    I was just wondering for the users that use both RR and CF, what are the pros and cons between each other?

    Recently I have been kind of unimpressed with how the updates for CF are coming along. It seems more like the users are making strides to keep the FE alive. All I see from FLUX is that they are doing this and that, but it just isn't expedient enough for me.

    My goal was to have a system with advanced features, amazing skinning abilities and something that just has a major wow factor. Also something that is kept current, which CF is failing at right now. Basically I have this gut feeling that CF is no longer a priority for FLUX, so I want to start looking into other options.

    I do understand that RR is a tinkering FE, meaning I have to do a lot of tweaking to get it the way I want. I guess now is the time to learn, but I also have questions for you guys.

    1) Are programs easy to embed into RR? I have a lot of emulators and so far they all embed into CF very well. I'd like the same functionality.

    2) What is the most popular NAV software that you guys use and has options like lowering the volume of the music so I can hear the voice prompts?

    3) Does RR have the ability to tell programs to go to a specific screen? Say for example I want my SEGA emulator to play only on display 2, I would embed the program into CF in the options, then tell it to open on that display. Does RR do this also?

    4) For PLUGIN Developers! Are there any plans to make a rear screen control system for multi screen users? One thing that has kept me from RR is the lack of rear controls. I was wondering if maybe something was in the works. The way CF currently does it is it makes a similar interface like the main screen with the buttons, but those buttons are dedicated to the rear screen. A down fall of the CF version is that you are limited to only 6 buttons and you cant use buttons that are for embedded programs. You can only use plugins they specify, which is dumb because then I have to make the buttons on my screen and people have to ask me to activate things. Another great feature of the plugin is the ability to send audio between places. So if rear is watching a movie to headphones and everyone wants to listen, you hit a button and the audio changes. Thing is it is kind of buggy. I think a plugin that is similar to this would be great for RR. FLUX doesn't seem interested right now in making rear zone feature 100% usable.

    5) Is RR solid on Win 7?

    6) Me liking CF because it is so easy to set up, will the learning curve for me to jump into RR be a huge deal?

    7) Is the phone solution solid or close to solid like on CF? If I am not mistaken RR also uses BlueSoliel? Does it work good? Also will it work with my setup, which has a dedicated sound card, AMP, and speaker for phone, which is used in conjunction with the echo cancel card.

    8) Anything else I should know about?
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  • #2
    wow i dont think i've ever responded to a list of numbers going up to 8.. but here it goes lol

    Originally posted by ZX1Cruizer View Post
    1) Are programs easy to embed into RR? I have a lot of emulators and so far they all embed into CF very well. I'd like the same functionality.
    just as easy as CF, you simply need app path and window name.

    2) What is the most popular NAV software that you guys use and has options like lowering the volume of the music so I can hear the voice prompts?
    RR has built-in support for iguidance with lowering the music and auto switching on guidance. I dont think that any other program does it at this point.

    3) Does RR have the ability to tell programs to go to a specific screen? Say for example I want my SEGA emulator to play only on display 2, I would embed the program into CF in the options, then tell it to open on that display. Does RR do this also?
    no RR has extremely limited support for multi screen setups. There are some things you can do with a skin and extended desktops to make it appear "multi-screen", but there is a sharp limit to what you can do as a secondary user. A LOT sharper than with CF


    4) For PLUGIN Developers! Are there any plans to make a rear screen control system for multi screen users? One thing that has kept me from RR is the lack of rear controls. I was wondering if maybe something was in the works. The way CF currently does it is it makes a similar interface like the main screen with the buttons, but those buttons are dedicated to the rear screen. A down fall of the CF version is that you are limited to only 6 buttons and you cant use buttons that are for embedded programs. You can only use plugins they specify, which is dumb because then I have to make the buttons on my screen and people have to ask me to activate things. Another great feature of the plugin is the ability to send audio between places. So if rear is watching a movie to headphones and everyone wants to listen, you hit a button and the audio changes. Thing is it is kind of buggy. I think a plugin that is similar to this would be great for RR. FLUX doesn't seem interested right now in making rear zone feature 100% usable.
    see number 3. I honestly cant see it happening with RR ever. I'm not even sure its possible being that RR is written in vb6

    5) Is RR solid on Win 7?
    rock solid. Just as CF

    6) Me liking CF because it is so easy to set up, will the learning curve for me to jump into RR be a huge deal?
    there is a STEEP learning curve going from CF to RR. When you switch to RR you're back to editing text files for skin/plugin settings. A huge advantage that CF has to new users is you can change settings for both core apps and plugins in a uniform settings location. With RR, you use a combination of RRConfig and notepad to do settings. There are some "master" skins which help you get around having to manually edit the text files, but that limits you to what skin you can actually use.

    7) Is the phone solution solid or close to solid like on CF? If I am not mistaken RR also uses BlueSoliel? Does it work good? Also will it work with my setup, which has a dedicated sound card, AMP, and speaker for phone, which is used in conjunction with the echo cancel card.
    Its nowhere near as polished as CF, but it works. I haven't seen much development on it lately though.

    8) Anything else I should know about?
    RR is faster than CF3. Hell its faster than CF2. Its easier to skin for than CF, but thats a gift and a curse in most cases. A high percentage of people use Clean in CF, whereas RR users pick and choose from a far greater variety of skins. For a developer, this is a PITA because bug reports turn into a matter of problems relating to a skin and not necessarily a plugin.

    They are by far a greater number of developers using CF and creating plugins for CF. RR seems at a standstill in that regard.

    My opinion on the stability of the program, CF wins. Updates come quarterly rather than monthly, but based on the fact that its built in a current programming language it means CF has a greater base for expansion (whether they take advantage of it is another thing).

    Lastly, security. My heart of hearts tells me RR will be around forever whereas i share the same opinion of you of where flux is right now with CF. But in all honesty after what went on in 2007/2008 with RR i cant really say RR wont turn into another product in the future.
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    • #3
      I basically agree with what Sonic has said, but will add an addendum which is more specific to you on 3/4.

      As RR is free, you can run as many copies as you like, so having a PC per screen is viable. In fact that is something I have in the works, maybe not as many as you but the install in my older car will eventually have at least 3 PC's to go with the 3 screens I have. (one front dash and two headrests).

      A little while ago I looked at writing a plugin that would allow RR's running on different PC's communicate with each other and therefore control each other.

      I did a basic proof on concept and it seemed to work. So sometime in the future I will start active development on that.

      You can also run more than one version of RR on a single PC, so it is also possible to have one run on the main screen and the second on the second screen.


      That's it for now.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sonicxtacy02 View Post
        wow i dont think i've ever responded to a list of numbers going up to 8.. but here it goes lol



        just as easy as CF, you simply need app path and window name.



        RR has built-in support for iguidance with lowering the music and auto switching on guidance. I dont think that any other program does it at this point.



        no RR has extremely limited support for multi screen setups. There are some things you can do with a skin and extended desktops to make it appear "multi-screen", but there is a sharp limit to what you can do as a secondary user. A LOT sharper than with CF




        see number 3. I honestly cant see it happening with RR ever. I'm not even sure its possible being that RR is written in vb6



        rock solid. Just as CF



        there is a STEEP learning curve going from CF to RR. When you switch to RR you're back to editing text files for skin/plugin settings. A huge advantage that CF has to new users is you can change settings for both core apps and plugins in a uniform settings location. With RR, you use a combination of RRConfig and notepad to do settings. There are some "master" skins which help you get around having to manually edit the text files, but that limits you to what skin you can actually use.



        Its nowhere near as polished as CF, but it works. I haven't seen much development on it lately though.



        RR is faster than CF3. Hell its faster than CF2. Its easier to skin for than CF, but thats a gift and a curse in most cases. A high percentage of people use Clean in CF, whereas RR users pick and choose from a far greater variety of skins. For a developer, this is a PITA because bug reports turn into a matter of problems relating to a skin and not necessarily a plugin.

        They are by far a greater number of developers using CF and creating plugins for CF. RR seems at a standstill in that regard.

        My opinion on the stability of the program, CF wins. Updates come quarterly rather than monthly, but based on the fact that its built in a current programming language it means CF has a greater base for expansion (whether they take advantage of it is another thing).

        Lastly, security. My heart of hearts tells me RR will be around forever whereas i share the same opinion of you of where flux is right now with CF. But in all honesty after what went on in 2007/2008 with RR i cant really say RR wont turn into another product in the future.
        All of your answers make sense, thanx for answering all 8 of them. I didn't realize that RR was really that complicated and that plugin development has also slowed.

        I guess at this point its a wait and see matter. My only issue is that if I go the CF route, I have to buy 7 copies of it, and that is a lot of money. I don't want to spend it and not get proper help from FLUX and have to wait so long for upgrades. Also another thing that is pi$$ing me off is that it seems they selectively choose who they want to answer. I don't know how many different threads I have complained in about their retarded limits on the rear screen controls.

        Originally posted by Enforcer View Post
        I basically agree with what Sonic has said, but will add an addendum which is more specific to you on 3/4.

        As RR is free, you can run as many copies as you like, so having a PC per screen is viable. In fact that is something I have in the works, maybe not as many as you but the install in my older car will eventually have at least 3 PC's to go with the 3 screens I have. (one front dash and two headrests).

        A little while ago I looked at writing a plugin that would allow RR's running on different PC's communicate with each other and therefore control each other.

        I did a basic proof on concept and it seemed to work. So sometime in the future I will start active development on that.

        You can also run more than one version of RR on a single PC, so it is also possible to have one run on the main screen and the second on the second screen.


        That's it for now.
        OH WOW, I thought I was the only weird one doing the multi PC idea, good to know your heading that route also. Now as far as the personal units go, they can run their own copies and do not have to communicate with the main PC. Only thing they will have to share is the Air Card, Media Drive, and DVD Drive. Other then that I do not need them to communicate at all. The switching feature is controlled by KVMP switches. If someone wants to do their own thing, they hit a keyboard command to switch to their unit.

        The main issue is the Main PC unit. Not only does it give me control on my screen of car essential stuff, but then from display connection number two, it goes to all the screens in the back. They all watch the same thing. I guess that is where I would run the second instance of RR. My concern is will it slow down my system running two on one PC? Also the instances would be dramatically different.

        Instance 1 would only be Nav, OBD2, Phone, Music, XM, basically stuff that is related to driver.

        Instance 2 would be all the fun stuff like Sling Player, Games, stuff that is dangerous to the driver.

        Now where my concerns lie is can instance 2 be directed to a specific sound card? My install has 3, one of which is for head phones for the rear.

        Now I don't know where you are with development, but if you can maybe make a plugin in that can help instance 1 communicate with instance 2 then it would be cool. Basically I am referring to pushing the content between audio sources, the way CF can do. Say for example, me as the driver also wants to hear the movie they are watching. i would hit stop on music, then maybe hit a button that says redirect audio to speakers. Then if I do not want to hear what they are doing I can redirect the audio back to the headphones. As far as all the lock option that CF has, i think they are pointless. The audio aspect of being able to switch sound cards should be the route they go.

        See this ability alone to run 2 instances is really drawing me towards RR. Slow down isn't that big of a concern because the system is a quad core setup. If the great all mighty enforcer can come up with audio switching plugin, I am sold. All the other issues like phone, I can work out later. My main concern is multiple screens and audio switching.

        Another idea on the audio switching, is maybe using Mitch's Audio Selector. Basically we would connect the sound card that is for the rear headphones to one of the line in ports on the UAS. Then if I want the audio to be on the main speakers, I simply change the UAS to input 3 and the audio should pump out on the speakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        OMG, I really think I may have solved this issue. Thank you so much Enforcer! Infact, I may be able to do the same with CF. If I can get a second instance working, then the UAS can do the switching between back and front. This will kill the dumb rear controls 6 button limit. i could just kiss you!!!!!!!!!!!

        PS: I promise I wont use my tongue.
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        • #5
          Hope you got a week or two to get 7 instances of RR working, skinned, and plugins enabled to your preference lol
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          • #6
            The main reason I always go back and forth between CF and RR is RRMedia. It's the best plugin ever written, IMHO. Too bad it seems to be abandoned now, but I am using a subset of my music collection just to be able to use RRMedia with no issues. Very cool plugin. CF is primitive with it's media management.

            I also like RR skins best, specially Carwings. And the Milkdrop visualizations are great.

            Can't wait to see your setup working.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sonicxtacy02 View Post
              Hope you got a week or two to get 7 instances of RR working, skinned, and plugins enabled to your preference lol
              Well I would cheat. You should know i always try to take short cuts with software, lol. What I am going to do is get everything working on one rear PC. I mean everything! Once that is done I will install EWF and HORM, and then make an image. Once that is done, I will simply copy the image onto PC 2-6.

              Its the main system that will take me the longest, it has so many devices and features and they all have to work together. I emailed FLUX, if they say I can run 2 instances, then I should be all set. If they say NO, then looks like I will have to take my time and get every aspect working with RR. Hopefully I can get you guys to help me out with issues I may run into. As far as skinning, I like the skin Kimota uses. I think its VOID something, LX VOID? I have hands down always been in love with that skin.

              Originally posted by RipplingHurst View Post
              The main reason I always go back and forth between CF and RR is RRMedia. It's the best plugin ever written, IMHO. Too bad it seems to be abandoned now, but I am using a subset of my music collection just to be able to use RRMedia with no issues. Very cool plugin. CF is primitive with it's media management.

              I also like RR skins best, specially Carwings. And the Milkdrop visualizations are great.

              Can't wait to see your setup working.
              The media isnt all that big of a deal. If RR does it better then thats great. I am simply obsessed with multi zone.

              This is another reason CF fails, the visuals are so $h!++y. I dont mean alittle, but a lot!!!!!!!!!!! Its been the same 3 stupid visuals since CF1.4, lol. I have begged with not really any answer. When you add any otehr visuals that work, half of them crash CF or cause issues that make it useless.

              Now I have to ask..... What happens if rear controls try to access something the front instance is doing? Say for example HD Radio...... If I am listening to it, they cant use it because it is already in use, but say I decided to listen to MP3s instead, can they then use HD Radio? Like will instance 1 release it?
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sonicxtacy02 View Post
                Hope you got a week or two to get 7 instances of RR working, skinned, and plugins enabled to your preference lol
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by treetop777 View Post
                  Mission Impossible!
                  No it isnt!!!!!!!!!!! Your supposed to be encourging me to use RR, not putting more doubt into my mind! Its ok though, I like challenges.
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                  • #10
                    no... to your HD Radio question...

                    one thing to know, media and audio is almost completely unmanaged by RR
                    it relys on 3rd party.. aka winamp, wmp, foobar...etc

                    i cant say what you want to do is impossible, but its certinly isnt easy

                    thinking about it, another instance could run almost completly isolated
                    but they cant share radio/xm/sirius hardware at the same time, nor hand off to each other

                    i better stop thinking about it.. its begining to hurt
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ZX1Cruizer View Post
                      OH WOW, I thought I was the only weird one doing the multi PC idea, good to know your heading that route also. Now as far as the personal units go, they can run their own copies and do not have to communicate with the main PC. Only thing they will have to share is the Air Card, Media Drive, and DVD Drive. Other then that I do not need them to communicate at all. The switching feature is controlled by KVMP switches. If someone wants to do their own thing, they hit a keyboard command to switch to their unit.
                      Sharing the Aircard (I assume you mean internet connection via a phone network or WiFi) should be fairly painless as you can use Internet Connect Sharing (much that normally I hate it, it should work for this situation, unless you stick an external phone router on the network)

                      Media Drive, I was planning on each PC having their own media drive which is all sync'd with the master but if you have a separate NAS then that would work.

                      DVD drive is trickier, yes you can share it out from the main PC, but more than one using it at the same time might caus issues, I would tend to have Video media on the meida drives.


                      With my plugin the idea would be that the satelite PC's would be controlled independantly but the main PC could at the press of a button (or gesture) take control of the satelite PC, change whatever it needs to and then let go.




                      Originally posted by ZX1Cruizer View Post
                      Now where my concerns lie is can instance 2 be directed to a specific sound card? My install has 3, one of which is for head phones for the rear.
                      The direction of the soundcard would be down to the media player you use and whether they can either run multiple copies or whether each RR uses a different media player.

                      Winamp I know can run multiple instances and each one can be set to a specific soundcard (this may need them to be different type though, not 100% sure on this one)


                      Originally posted by ZX1Cruizer View Post
                      Now I don't know where you are with development, but if you can maybe make a plugin in that can help instance 1 communicate with instance 2 then it would be cool. Basically I am referring to pushing the content between audio sources, the way CF can do. Say for example, me as the driver also wants to hear the movie they are watching. i would hit stop on music, then maybe hit a button that says redirect audio to speakers. Then if I do not want to hear what they are doing I can redirect the audio back to the headphones. As far as all the lock option that CF has, i think they are pointless. The audio aspect of being able to switch sound cards should be the route they go.

                      See this ability alone to run 2 instances is really drawing me towards RR. Slow down isn't that big of a concern because the system is a quad core setup. If the great all mighty enforcer can come up with audio switching plugin, I am sold. All the other issues like phone, I can work out later. My main concern is multiple screens and audio switching.

                      Another idea on the audio switching, is maybe using Mitch's Audio Selector. Basically we would connect the sound card that is for the rear headphones to one of the line in ports on the UAS. Then if I want the audio to be on the main speakers, I simply change the UAS to input 3 and the audio should pump out on the speakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                      OMG, I really think I may have solved this issue. Thank you so much Enforcer! Infact, I may be able to do the same with CF. If I can get a second instance working, then the UAS can do the switching between back and front. This will kill the dumb rear controls 6 button limit. i could just kiss you!!!!!!!!!!!
                      Audio switching between systems would be tricky, maybe have a fusion brain as an audio selector which can be controlled with a custom plugin.



                      As for the KISS, I think that has gone out of the window.


                      :. Keep It Simple Stupid - Not in this case

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mitchjs View Post
                        no... to your HD Radio question...

                        one thing to know, media and audio is almost completely unmanaged by RR
                        it relys on 3rd party.. aka winamp, wmp, foobar...etc

                        i cant say what you want to do is impossible, but its certinly isnt easy

                        thinking about it, another instance could run almost completly isolated
                        but they cant share radio/xm/sirius hardware at the same time, nor hand off to each other

                        i better stop thinking about it.. its begining to hurt
                        i think the idea of using your UAS should do the trick. As far as the xm/radio.... It was just a thought, but I really dont think users will want to listen to XM, if they do, then the rear can use the online version to access Sat Radio, which I think the program embedded perfectly the last time I used it.

                        Originally posted by Enforcer View Post
                        Sharing the Aircard (I assume you mean internet connection via a phone network or WiFi) should be fairly painless as you can use Internet Connect Sharing (much that normally I hate it, it should work for this situation, unless you stick an external phone router on the network)
                        That was my thought. The main PC will share its connection, which goes to a 8 port ethernet switch and an access point for mobile hot spot. It will be by far the easiest to do.

                        Media Drive, I was planning on each PC having their own media drive which is all sync'd with the master but if you have a separate NAS then that would work.
                        I wanted to do that also, but because I have movies, music and tons of roms on the media drive (which need a 1TB Drive), I decided to just set the drive as a shared drive. Have all the media accessed that way.

                        DVD drive is trickier, yes you can share it out from the main PC, but more than one using it at the same time might cause issues, I would tend to have Video media on the meida drives.
                        Yes, I know the drive trying to have multiple reads will slow everyone down. It will most likely not allow more then one user, which is fine because i rarely think the DVD rom will be used anyways.

                        With my plugin the idea would be that the satelite PC's would be controlled independantly but the main PC could at the press of a button (or gesture) take control of the satelite PC, change whatever it needs to and then let go.
                        Thats an interesting idea..... I didn't feel that was needed. That is also why those back units use EWF, so if users screw something up, I know all I have to do is reset and everything is all good. I think the dual instance and UAS will be the best solution.

                        The direction of the soundcard would be down to the media player you use and whether they can either run multiple copies or whether each RR uses a different media player.

                        Winamp I know can run multiple instances and each one can be set to a specific soundcard (this may need them to be different type though, not 100% sure on this one)
                        I think the best way is a hardware solution, like the UAS. Mind you when audio is transfered into line in, I wont see the track or movie title on the driver nav screen, but honestly it doesn't matter because the driver also has a rear screen for himself also. I think this is where CF is falling short, its so caught up in sending info around, when all is really needed is the transfer of sound.

                        Audio switching between systems would be tricky, maybe have a fusion brain as an audio selector which can be controlled with a custom plugin.
                        I think the UAS will work perfect. I am not sure if how the RR plugin is, but the CF plugin has a GUI plugin for what audio source you want to use. So all I have to do is place a button on the main screen that leads to the UAS, then hit input 3. It will take what, maybe 3 clicks?

                        As for the KISS, I think that has gone out of the window.


                        :. Keep It Simple Stupid - Not in this case
                        Well the kiss doesn't expire, so it will be here anytime you need it. Wait a minute though, don't Europeans kiss each others cheeks when they meet? I think some countries even do a double kiss! We'll just pretend its one of those!

                        Believe it or not is was you that got me to think simple. i was trying to do it all by software because I thought that was the best route. Its funny because all the PC switching abilities is all hardware, rather then software. It was so much easier to do being hardware based since most software solutions kill the main pc as far as processing. I am glad I made this post because I would have never thought of it. All it will take is an extra cable coming from the head jack amp to the UAS and I'm done. Thats it!
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ZX1Cruizer View Post
                          No it isnt!!!!!!!!!!! Your supposed to be encourging me to use RR, not putting more doubt into my mind! Its ok though, I like challenges.
                          That was a reality check! it's hard enough to get 2 instances running (nobody so far have been able to do it where they run reliably) let alone 7. Good luck.

                          Subscribed..

                          sounds like a wager is in order..
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RipplingHurst View Post
                            The main reason I always go back and forth between CF and RR is RRMedia. It's the best plugin ever written, IMHO. Too bad it seems to be abandoned now, but I am using a subset of my music collection just to be able to use RRMedia with no issues. Very cool plugin.
                            OT it's def not abandoned! Dfx5 will have the 1.3 version and soon after that I will package up the standalone version with example skin. There is one feature that is pretty much done it's just not executing a 100% everytime the way I want it to, it is whats stalling that feature.
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                            • #15
                              ^^ Awesome news!
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