Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

why SD is dead (or dying)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • why SD is dead (or dying)

    All of the following is IMHO, so if you aren't afraid to read something that is incorrect (or at least correct me), do not feel the need to proceed any further.

    It seems to me that SD was a great idea in the beginning. I'm not sure what was available at the time of conception (looking up "streetdeck" in wikipedia didn't return any results, nor RR for that matter), but SD was targeting the "mp3car" market, the "enthusiasts". It was written for windows XP, which everyone used at the time, and has an "Enthusiast" price to go with it (niche products always seem more expensive). Simple assumption? okay then lets proceed.

    Lately it seems that as the market has awakened up to the idea that car entertainment can be sooo much more than just just a cd player, and SD has found itself rather orphaned. Sure, it's looks great and has lots of great features that you'd want, but it's orphaned from mass appeal because of the platform. Yes, that means windows XP.

    With XP soon reaching end-of-life (no microsoft will not support it forever), and Vista being far from the solution, companies in the car entertainment sphere are forced to overlook it. Throw in licensing fees for windows and SD and you've got another gotcha. Most companies have gone the route of developing their own sub-par applications.

    Sure, there is XPe, but, after doing a little research, you find that the problem of licensing costs, along with the need to targeting specific hardware architectures (eg, Arm, MIPS, PPC, etc) too limiting. XP and XPe are x86 only and don't have the ability to be mission critical for time sensative data like performance statistics+advanced sound processing because XP and XPe aren't real-time operating systems, and they aren't reentrant.

    So that leaves SD in the space only for enthusiasts -a space where it has become very hard to compete in. Open source apps that are free, which have a large developer base (ie, RR), provide faster updates and more content than SD can, being closed and commercially developed. I don't think it is going to be very viable for any commercial, non-open car entertainment application to survive in this space for very long either. Bigger, better, faster moving, and more open apps are going to apppear and they just won't be able to keep up.

    Now, SD needs to reinvent itself. It needs to drop it's dependency on DirectX and WMP. It needs to embrace open standards like OpenGL. It needs to disassociate itself from XP and become more hardware and OS agnostic. SD can remain closed-source and become more profitable because they will be able to sell solutions on multiple platforms and architectures. Furthermore, all other solutions who want to be more than "Johny's pet project" had better follow suit.

    This is going to take a lot of work however. SD may have to scrub all it's code and start all over. It's what happens when you paint yourself into a corner like that.

    just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth.
    Former author of LinuxICE, nghost, nobdy.
    Current author of Automotive Message Broker (AMB).
    Works on Tizen IVI. Does not represent anyone or anything but himself.

  • #2
    well this is an open invitation for flames from all sides I know it..

    Anyways, I know where you stand on the whole OS side of things but XP is not a bad OS. Sure it is pricy but you get what you pay for. And XP will continued to be supported for a while to come. And by the time it isnt supported, Vista's rancid odour will have faded a bit. Glory of microsoft (and linux but not mac) is that there is legacy support. So even when XP dies in 4 or 5 years, SD will work perfectly fine on Microsoft Zlorch or whatever it is by that time.

    And i dont use SD because RR is free and just as good
    Fusion Brain Version 6 Released!
    1.9in x 2.9in -- 47mm x 73mm
    30 Digital Outputs -- Directly drive a relay
    15 Analogue Inputs -- Read sensors like temperature, light, distance, acceleration, and more
    Buy now in the MP3Car.com Store

    Comment


    • #3
      It's Windoze Splortch, Toaster.

      SPLORTCH is the sound that a chunk of flesh makes when it smacks against a hard surface.
      Have you looked in the FAQ yet?
      How about the Wiki?



      Under normal circumstances, a signature would go here.

      Comment


      • #4
        dont take this as a critism but do you honestly believe SD's current failures have anything to do with its OS? That baffles me! You're implying that instead of the development team focusing on its current base of subscribers and they're support isssues they should redevelop the whole package for multiple OS's? Quite frankily i think that would **** off the current customers more than they are now. Its kinda hard to explain to a buyer that just spent 200 bucks on software that their already lackluster support will be further strained by the fact that development is starting from scratch to appeal to a greater audience. Also, i doubt ANYONE at this point is or should be worried about windows support of XP. They've already stated XPs support wont end until 2012.. and really who NEEDS support of XP in a car pc environment. I know in my 5 years of carputing i've never called microsoft for support. You install it, activate it and ur done.

        I believe SD's failures come from the simple fact that they promised WAY too much in the beginning and release the software way too early in its lifetime. I'm sure more than half the people that were excited for SD failed to read the fine print that basically said you're paying 200 bucks to beta test a product. SD is dying because the developers failed to strengthen its roots before branching out to other avenues.
        mp3Car.com Senior Tech Blogger (Want a product reviewed? Contact me.)
        Follow Me on Twitter or Facebook
        Live mp3Car Facebook Chat

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 2k1Toaster View Post
          well this is an open invitation for flames from all sides I know it..
          I didn't mean to say that XP was a "bad" OS. It's a fine desktop OS with lots of good points. I think just about everyone is aware of XPs bad points.

          dont take this as a critism but do you honestly believe SD's current failures have anything to do with its OS? That baffles me! You're implying that instead of the development team focusing on its current base of subscribers and their support isssues they should redevelop the whole package for multiple OS's?
          Heh, NO. I am saying that from a purely marketing perspective, if SD wanted to grow into the market they seem to want to grow into, building their product on XP will keep them where they currently are. They are dying because they cannot compete in THIS market. You are right however, and I would add your comments to the reasons they are having a hard time competing currently.

          ATM, you cannot compare Microsoft Sync (for example only) with any current technology platform in the carpc space. SD would blow Sync out of the water (or perhaps the kitchen?), but why hasn't it? A failure in marketing? I think, and I may be wrong, but the platform's dependencies make it unattractive for that audience.
          Former author of LinuxICE, nghost, nobdy.
          Current author of Automotive Message Broker (AMB).
          Works on Tizen IVI. Does not represent anyone or anything but himself.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sonicxtacy02 View Post
            ... and really who NEEDS support of XP in a car pc environment. I know in my 5 years of carputing i've never called microsoft for support.
            That's worth repeating. Almost by definition anyone who has the desire and ability to put a computer in his car doesn't need to have his hand held by Microsoft. I have never had any need for Microsoft support in over twenty years of using its products, including XP.

            Comment


            • #7
              I run SD on Vista fine so far...... SD was built on one of the most widely used OS back then. And even with the end of OS they have worked to get it working on Vista which it does. I don't think its abandoned mostly because of its platform. Many people here use the XP as an OS. Because it's pretty user friendly, comes with just about every pc out there and many things work with XP without porting to another OS. Not many of us have skills to tweak an OS to do what we want it to do, nor the knowledge and time to do so. We are a world where we like to open a box, plug it in, and it works, yay. Minimum setup required. I do however think that they have promised 1 to many things and not delivered, and being caught up in a supposed NDA they have failed us as stated in other 2 threads in the streetdeck forum (pick a reason lol). But I highly doubt that its going to fail because of the platform.
              "The text that you have entered is too long (12638 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long."

              Dam it!

              "The text that you have entered is too long (10418 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long."

              Comment


              • #8
                I mean im kind of new to this whole carputing scene as it stands so maybe i shouldnt talk but i figure i should voice my opinion...

                Being that i am in the market for a frontend since my system should be up and running on monday...

                From my point of view, it is smarter for me to try every single free front end out there before i go and spend 200 dollars on something like street deck... I think thats their failure right there its wayyy to expensive...

                It will cost me 100 dollars for my operating system and then 200 for a front end? i mean i dont care how nice it is i will probably use windows itself before i drop that kind of money im not cheap im just not stupid it dosent make sense to buy something that simply makes going through some folders and accessing certain programs easy through big buttons and nice shortcuts to spend 200 dollars on it...

                I mean being that i am new maybe i dont know what im talking about and please correct me but it just dosent make any sense especially with free alternatives out there i mean my whole car pc from the mobo to the hard drive to the case and the slimline burner cost less then 200 why should i spend 200 on a front end... im very confused about the price of this product....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lucegunz View Post
                  it dosent make sense to buy something that simply makes going through some folders and accessing certain programs easy through big buttons and nice shortcuts to spend 200 dollars on it...
                  I use Roadrunner rather than SD, but to be fair the $200 version of SD is not just accessing folders and programs already on your computer. It comes bundled with navigation software, which is typically in the $100 range, voice recognition software, and some other stuff you would probably have to pay for if you wanted to get the same functionality. There is a learning curve to using Roadrunner so I could easily see someone shelling out for SD if it did most of everything they wanted out of the box.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kev000 View Post
                    All of the following is IMHO, so if you aren't afraid to read something that is incorrect (or at least correct me), do not feel the need to proceed any further.
                    :
                    The $200 for streetdeck is for the same reason CF is $300 (well, the reason is the same, the price isn't) and that is navigation. Streetdeck uses microsoft mappoint, which is one of the priciest navigation software packages on the market. Don't believe me try and buy it standalone. Truth is you are getting mappoint at $100 off and Streetdeck is thrown in for free.

                    Some people say that don't like mappoint.....ok, MOST people say they don't like mappoint. So why did they use it? I thing it was for future alliances. You might not find streetdeck on wikipedia (by the way, I think you used that example to show how "little" streetdeck is and it was a major cheap shot), but you CAN go to Intel or Microsoft and find all kinds of things where Streetdeck is working with both.

                    CF uses desinator. Not sure what price it is standalone (destinator). But what I don't understand with them is the added price for phone when they are using a free service (bluesoleil or whatever it's called). To me that is just wrong. Maybe they bought a license from blue and that is the added cost, but why does it ask for a serial number and then say it's a demo version? It's an RC, so maybe it will change. Who knows.

                    WHY ON EARTH would they end their dependance on directx and WMP? Microsoft is the strongest company on this planet and has the best chance of survival. Not use WMP? You can argue sound quality maybe, but going to open source? Why do you think Linux hasn't already put Microsoft out of business? Because there is no quality control! Directx and WMP are the two major players in the computer industry, and you think they should go open source?



                    Streetdeck is on standby, and from my view, is there for a reason. To gain strength and mementum for it's future. And yes, it's going to upset us all that are here early on, but I am certain it will come back a better product. Where is it then? My guess is over at Aptera working on computer controlled suspension software, but that's just a guess on my part. It would keep everyone extremely busy, due to deadlines from all outside vendors on the project, and would explain the lack of support here.

                    As for XP......

                    When you can download Linux and NOT have to go searching for a single driver EVER, at that point, and only at that point, can you even consider comparing it with Windows. Well, I take that back, you can compare it to Windows Vista when it first came out. And you saw the popularity of that.

                    Everyone here knows you are building a linux based front end, and I personally don't mind you arguing it's points. But don't do a Hillary/Obama. Definition: the only way to make your software look good is to make the others look bad.

                    Stand on your own merits, not the other guys faults. THEN you might be on the way to that "killer" front end.
                    My opinion is my own.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kev000 View Post

                      ATM, you cannot compare Microsoft Sync (for example only) with any current technology platform in the carpc space. SD would blow Sync out of the water (or perhaps the kitchen?), but why hasn't it? A failure in marketing? I think, and I may be wrong, but the platform's dependencies make it unattractive for that audience.
                      Because visitors can't get in your car and say "Play Michael Bolton" and the car understand you. Now, when the onevoice plugin comes out in July.

                      My other guess for the future of SD is an OS built around it (again, alliance with MS). This will give faster bootups, but take away soooooo much freedom.

                      Edit: And Kev.....come on......on a serious note......why hasn't SD wiped out Sync? Sync requires going down to your local Ford dealer and buying a new car. SD requires you to buy the car, the computer, the wiring, the monitor, etc. etc. etc. Is there really a comparison there? Sync isn't a computer, and if it was, and you could load your own software? Who do you think would win that battle? I would be begging SD to go public. You are still linux-blinded....you don't think that having to put in countless hours making your OS work is a bad thing. But "ease of use" is a major factor in ANY purchase!
                      My opinion is my own.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's funny, its almost like hes saying that everything, games, software, that are built on directx, and wmp, and xp is going to fail because its not open source.
                        SD won't fail because, peeople love things that are done for them right out of the box. It's all about convenience, hence one of the reasons people come to the carpc scene, to build a carpc so its more convenient for them to access their movies, music, and nav at somewhat a reasonable price. Given their certain situation there have been complaints about support but thats for another thread. SD will fail to the people that love open source because they can't tweak it because it's not open source and configure it in a crazy way and get it to do things that SD can't currently do, or say they can do but really can't, again another post on the forums.
                        "The text that you have entered is too long (12638 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long."

                        Dam it!

                        "The text that you have entered is too long (10418 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ViViper1 View Post
                          It's funny, its almost like hes saying that everything, games, software, that are built on directx, and wmp, and xp is going to fail because its not open source.
                          SD won't fail because, peeople love things that are done for them right out of the box. It's all about convenience, hence one of the reasons people come to the carpc scene, to build a carpc so its more convenient for them to access their movies, music, and nav at somewhat a reasonable price. Given their certain situation there have been complaints about support but thats for another thread. SD will fail to the people that love open source because they can't tweak it because it's not open source and configure it in a crazy way and get it to do things that SD can't currently do, or say they can do but really can't, again another post on the forums.
                          Using the same "logic", Linux is for the everyday user and Windows is only for the "advanced" computer user, and the lobster market is going to put Hamburger Helper and Macaroni and Cheese out of business.
                          My opinion is my own.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by danielkh View Post

                            When you can download Linux and NOT have to go searching for a single driver EVER, at that point, and only at that point, can you even consider comparing it with Windows. Well, I take that back, you can compare it to Windows Vista when it first came out. And you saw the popularity of that.
                            I think an even better example would be a comparison to Windows XP 64. Remember that one? You could buy it for under $100. Why? There were no drivers and when you checked with the hardware venders, they weren't going to build one! So, if you wanted to use it, you had to MAKE your own drivers.

                            (and THAT is the reason XP 64 died. )
                            My opinion is my own.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              WHY ON EARTH would they end their dependance on directx and WMP? Microsoft is the strongest company on this planet and has the best chance of survival. Not use WMP? You can argue sound quality maybe, but going to open source? Why do you think Linux hasn't already put Microsoft out of business? Because there is no quality control! Directx and WMP are the two major players in the computer industry, and you think they should go open source?
                              wait wait wait just a second: open source != open standards. I should have said just "standards" instead of "open standards" to avoid the confusion. I never suggested that SD should go open source (in fact I suggested that they stay closed source: see first post). I suggested that they not have dependencies on third party systems that would ostracize anyone else.

                              I never mentioned anything about Linux. Placing you dependencies on standards means if Ford wants to do a deal with Apple, Apple may purchase SD software to meet that demand. It just smart programming (I admit I don't do this all the time) to not close out your potential markets when choosing technologies to include within your software.

                              I like your idea about SD teaming up with microsoft for a complete system. That will involve some refactoring but it is a step in the right direction.

                              I would argue that if Microsoft is the strongest company on this planet, the only direction they can go is down. It's rather analogous to Olympic basketball: the US team was dominant for many years but recently, the world has caught up and we haven't won the gold in how many Olympics?

                              My argument is why hasn't Chevrolet, Ford, Mitsubishi, Honda, Car MFG X put streetdeck in their cars? Maybe because $200 (SD) +$170 (windows) + $400++ (for hardware) > the total ~$350 bucks it costs for Sync FOR THE COMPLETE SYSTEM.

                              sure, YOU may not care about support for XP, but I'm positive Honda does, and every other car mfg that wants to make sure microsoft will patch security flaw X when it's discovered. No support from microsoft means no more security updates and no more service packs along with not more support calls.

                              You are still linux-blinded....you don't think that having to put in countless hours making your OS work is a bad thing. But "ease of use" is a major factor in ANY purchase!
                              ouch, I guess I did open myself up to flames... I agree 100% with you. I don't use Linux because i have to tweak things to get certian things to work (like wifi). I use Linux because in my experience I've found it to be the most productive environment for me to do what I want to do.

                              My goal wasn't to promote Linux, Open Source, or my project. If you noticed I never mentioned LinuxICE or nGhost at all in this thread. I didn't want anyone to say that I was just pimping my own project. 'nuf said. And won't pimp it in the thread because that's not my purpose.

                              before I started this thread, I asked myself what the ultimate solution would be for car entertainment. and the answer IMHO has to be in getting good hardware+software solutions either in cars right from the start or providing it in the aftermarket.

                              IMHO this solution doesn't currently exist. SD *can* be the solution, and I think they are trying now to be that solution, but they can't be the solution at this point unless some changes are made.
                              Former author of LinuxICE, nghost, nobdy.
                              Current author of Automotive Message Broker (AMB).
                              Works on Tizen IVI. Does not represent anyone or anything but himself.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X