Fusion Brain -- Digital Encoder Beta Test

**Paracelsus** · 05-30-2008, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by h3rk

There is hardware to do this already. Look up the Mongoose J2534 passthrough device, or CarDAQ, from Drewtech.

Thanks. I checked those, but I am not sure if these really do what I intended to do. Thanks for the pointers anyways.

I have however stumbled across this thingy:

http://www.canusb.com

Looks interesting.

Though this has nothing to do with encoders directly, I can see where a car can have an encoder (let's say in a radio), that allows functional control of another component (let's say, some display driven by another module, maybe the BCM). Now it would be cool to have access to the signal going from one car component to another.

That is exactly what I was referring to. I have one of these brank spanking new gizmo-laden cars and it would rule to use the OBC display for status signals from the carpc. However, as you mention it can be very tricky, especially due to the proprietary **** some manufacturers implement. I think some even encrypt the info passed back and forth. Another problem is the device IDs. A lot of OBCs just deny info from unknown devices or produce an error (like, if you change the stock HU for another identical model on my car you have to reset the BC for the new device so it won't spit out errors all the time). So, it would essentialla require a device that enables you to "tap" into the existing communications, sniff them out, analyze them and then program your adapter driver to clone the device removed. And it would require to hack and/or reverse engineer the protocol.

Since even locking and unlocking the doors is communicated via CAN on many newer vehicles, it's a no brainer to think... "hey I can really minimize my wiring if I can just tap into this baby, and free up some IO on the brain to interface with only my aftermarket stuff" If only the software could see that can data and treat mapped parameters as inputs.

I don't think it work like this. I am no pro on car electronics and CAN buses, but from what I gather from the service manual it is not really a BUS in the IT sense, at least not in my car. BUS to my would imply a single wire / cable that encompasses the entire car, with the device tapping into that line like stations. The way I see it here with my model, it looks like the data is piped into the BC and from the actions are taken. It more or less resembles a "hub" or a star topography, not a bus.

But you can still use a lot of CAN features without really tapping into the CAN itself. For instance, when you use the remote control to unlock the car, there is a digital signal sent from the radio receiver to the board computer, and from there the computer sends an analog signal to the lock actuators (and to the cockpit lights). One could just use any of these wires activation to trigger events.

The software has taken a long time to develop to it's current (awesome) state. A newer more versatile version of the hardware is on it's way...

Oh, I don't doubt that. And I was not criticizing anyone for NOT having this or that feature,

Also while the framework for CAN is well structured, the data that is passed is somewhat proprietary. There's no easy, universal way to tap into it.
[...]
Maybe someday, as it would be a great way to integrate new stuff with existing car functionality through the logic and interface of this software, but I don't see it happening soon.

I agree on the issues caused by proprietary. But I think as the top-notch cars get a bit older and trickle to down the enthusiasts who like to hack their car solutions and hacks will appear, first for the popular brands, later for the not so popular ones. See the BMW iBus hacks (or whatever they call their system).

Interesting topic though.

**h3rk** · 06-01-2008, 04:09 AM

what kind of connector is going from the encoder board to the encoder?
just a regular 2 pin header connector, like on the brain?

**Himszy** · 06-01-2008, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

I don't think it work like this. I am no pro on car electronics and CAN buses, but from what I gather from the service manual it is not really a BUS in the IT sense, at least not in my car. BUS to my would imply a single wire / cable that encompasses the entire car, with the device tapping into that line like stations. The way I see it here with my model, it looks like the data is piped into the BC and from the actions are taken. It more or less resembles a "hub" or a star topography, not a bus.

Nope, you have two wires (Canbus needs two wires not just a single one) that run around the vehicle and then you just tap into these with a load resistor and whatever interpreter you have and your into the bus.

A star would mean that every module had it's own set of wires doesn't it? That's not how it's wired on my car at least.

My car also has a higher speed Canbus (500kHz IIRC) for safety critical systems and a lower speed 250kHz one for non safety critical systems.

Sorry for the thread hijack btw

**greenman100** · 06-01-2008, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by h3rk

what kind of connector is going from the encoder board to the encoder?
just a regular 2 pin header connector, like on the brain?

regular 3 pin header

**2k1Toaster** · 06-08-2008, 04:51 AM

Got it all working. There are a few issues. First, I think the manufacturer didnt put the right capacitor values on it, so there are some errors. I dont think it will be a problem. It works fine almost always. Only time it goes wrong is when switching directions, the ICs get a bit of noise because the encoder is mechanical there is a bit of bounce, and it will flick forwards or back an extra time. But still very useable. Also there were 2 errors when I drew out the board, which a little solder fixed.

Here is everything all together and then the closeup of the board. The yellow/green/light coloured (I cant tell, im colour blind) LEDs on the bottom light up in binary as you turn the encoder. Good for fast debugging. And then the 2 blue ones light up for direction that the wheel is turning. Sort of nifty to watch.

**h3rk** · 06-08-2008, 06:52 PM

"still very usable" - sounds beta worthy to me

What say you?

I got my solder iron ready!!! Can't wait.

Are those caps that you think they may have got wrong for hardware debouncing then?

**2k1Toaster** · 06-08-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by h3rk

"still very usable" - sounds beta worthy to me

What say you?

I got my solder iron ready!!! Can't wait.

Are those caps that you think they may have got wrong for hardware debouncing then?

yup I think I can send these out for beta-ing.

The caps were for noise filtering and also to make the signal linger a bit. So the pulse is a pure square wave in the time that we sample at. Obviously going into the picoseconds or something it will have a rise and fall time, but even at a 5ns scale, these things put out a vertical line on the oscope. Now some of the chips on here are using the same stamp design as the chip had when it came out in the early 80's, and such a sharp rise/fall it doesnt like. So the cap made it more of a sawtooth looking thing which worked perfectly. Since university is out for the summer, I dont have a trusty oscope to go see what is happening exactly, but it does look there is some problem with the sizes. After talking to the manufacturer, they said they used 5% tolerance resistors when I told them to use 0.1% or 1% at worste. So the steps arenot as precise as they will be on the final product. Also they used 2.13Kohm instead of 2.0kohm, so that throws off my low pass filters a bit too. Just bad english/chinese translations going on. Also they screwed up the silkscreen and where there were supposed to be labels and our website, is nothing. Oh well.

So new plan. I am going to offer these to who wants them for $12. I am not going to go get a bunch of encoders. The encoder that I have used from conception to now is a 688-SRGP200200, you can order them or another one you want. Just look for one with quadrature output.

Found at mouser here: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....688-SRGP200200

Datasheet (in the 1st page picture it is the one on the right, the bigger one): http://www3.alps.com/WebObjects/cata...PSJ/SRGPSJ.PDF

So if you are still interested in beta-ing, let me know.

**2k1Toaster** · 06-11-2008, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by quantum

Hey 2K1, I'm in for one, as long as it works with the "original" fusion brain I got during the 3 day madness sale.

Mine will be stand alone, do I want dented or un-dented encoder?

Which is more hip?

TY

Originally Posted by h3rk

Count me in, definately! You already know what category I would be in (OEM knob).

Originally Posted by jimp

I Have auto everything on the car i am driving right now, but since our daughter hasn't made the first payment in a year and a half of driving the car we signed on for her, I will probably be cruising around in an 05 PT cruiser in a few weeks and my wife will get the impala. (not that she will ever drive it since she always has a demo anyway) at this point I will probably need to brush up on reading all of H3rk's stuff on auto air and will probably be needing this technology, even if not, it will give me something more to play with, so count me in also.

Originally Posted by dyne

I'd be interested in trying this with my alps rkjxt1e12001 encoder. The solution I'm using with an HID controller isn't working as well as I'd like.

What if we get faulty boards?

Originally Posted by mrbean_phillip

Hey 2k1Toaster,I am keen too, board with encoder, please - pm me when I should make payment.

Br,
MrBean

Originally Posted by Dilmahay

Hi, I would be interested in a board with an encoder if you are still doing them.

Originally Posted by alvinx

I would love to try it too. PM me when the boards arrive, i will drop in the payment and will let u know of the results after using it. Currently I am working on rewiring and redesigning the inputs/outputs for my stang, hope it arrives before i finish up.

Originally Posted by randyre

I'm up for one of the no-detent ones, I'm currently using an pot between my Soundcard and Amp. Any pictures, or sizes of the knobs? I really would like one about 3/4 - 1" dia. nd I guess I would need an encoder as all I have is the FB (just ordered today)

Randy

Originally Posted by Extide

Hey I'd be interested in testing this out. Encoder w/board, detented.

Alright, you guys still want one?

**quantum** · 06-11-2008, 07:57 AM

Hey 2k1,

So if I read this right, the "new" setup needs some soldering and parts from Mouser?

If that's the case (and if it's OK with ya') someone can have mine. I am not shy to admit I suck at soldering.

**greenman100** · 06-11-2008, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by quantum

Hey 2k1,

So if I read this right, the "new" setup needs some soldering and parts from Mouser?

If that's the case (and if it's OK with ya') someone can have mine. I am not shy to admit I suck at soldering.

2k1's doing the soldering