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Thread: Microsoft releases Windows Embedded Automotive 7

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripzero View Post
    I'm quite aware that you can replace windows' shell with a frontend. Most people don't though (probably because of deficiencies in the frontends themselves... which I don't really blame them, it's not easy rewriting an OS which essentially a frontend needs completely abstract the user away from the implementation details of the OS.).
    oh trust me I know lol

    Quote Originally Posted by tripzero View Post
    Development never stopped. It just changed targets. Development is ongoing and secret hints of awesomeness are in flight. But that's beside the point. My point was to illustrate how a specialized OS of any type has advantages over Desktop operating systems on things other than desktops.

    I assume you are referring to the Sys-V init process? While some distros still use this ancient (stable, and proven) boot process, others like Ubuntu have moved on to more modern event-based boot mechanisms such as Upstart which have proven to be quite fast. LinuxICE had upstart but was using a sys-v-init compatibility layer for processes that weren't updated to use upstart. Later versions of Ubuntu fixed this and that is why you see considerable boot speed increases if you update LinuxICE.

    If by 'archaic' you mean "loading processes from disk into memory, device detection, etc" then I don't see how windows or any modern operating system is different. None of that has changed much since the dawn of the modern computer on any operating system. Although, some OS's do things in different order to appear to boot quickly, ie the classic windows XP desktop appearing but being completely unusable for several more seconds until it finishes loading junk... or another one of my personal favorites, the input device detection that happens post login.

    At any rate, if you have suggestions on how to make the boot process more optimized than the proven only-load-what-the-user-will-need method... I'm all ears .
    Actually I haven't experienced a post-startup slowdown on windows since windows 98 (which is probably the last time you used windows)... but you do have a point and i think the right balance lies somewhere in the middle. Just because microsoft screwed the idea up doesn't mean the idea is flawed just microsofts implementation of it.
    Microsofts implementation is a free for all...everything tries to load at once after startup, and they all use the default thread priority which causes them to fight with UI apps. The proper approach to this is a managed init sequence post boot. Instead of having everything load at once you have a post boot script that handles loading everything not required to boot the PC and does so at a lower thread priority. This prevents resource lockup, lag, and the other negative effects of the microsoft approach. The goal of booting should be just that, to boot the PC. It should get the bare minimum running to display the UI and get music playing. Things like wifi are fine to not have running until 5-10seconds after boot if the boot time is 3-4seconds faster.
    The other half of this is getting rid of the hardware detection steps. Hardware enumeration should only occur when hardware changes, re-enumerating devices and detecting settings on every boot is a giant waste of time and resources...surely this 1980s approach is due for a modern update.
    As you can tell I'm not saying windows or any other OS does it "better" just that none of them do it the best way for a carPC.

  2. #12
    Mod - iPad Forums RipplingHurst's Avatar
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    Well, I actually like wifi to be on instantly, as I have lots of apps and gadgets that depend on it (traffic, calendar, email, etc.).

    As for hardware detection, does that mean another OS for portable devices (tablets, notebooks, other docking PCs)? I mean, it's important (for me) for the device to be able to detect hardware changes as it is undocked, docked in different stations. Even after resume from sleep/hibernation. Win7 (or CF) screws up that from time to time. I have a docking station at the office with mouse and a dedicated keyboard, another at the kitchen with one portable keyboard/pointing stick thing, and now another dock in the car with HD radio and space navigator/no keyboard. More importantantly in the car I have another screen and (edit: external sound card), and sometimes I have to reboot because CF/RR do not recognize some of that if it just wakes up (even when win7 is fine with it).

    I don't know why hardware detection is such a big deal, but apparently it is.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipplingHurst View Post
    Well, I actually like wifi to be on instantly, as I have lots of apps and gadgets that depend on it (traffic, calendar, email, etc.).
    Its all relative....nothing is instant on-you have to wait for the PC to boot. The question is, do you want to wait 15 seconds from the time you hit the power button until anything works...or would you rather have music in 10 and wifi in 15? Personally I prefer the latter and I think most other users would as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by RipplingHurst View Post
    As for hardware detection, does that mean another OS for portable devices (tablets, notebooks, other docking PCs)? I mean, it's important (for me) for the device to be able to detect hardware changes as it is undocked, docked in different stations. Even after resume from sleep/hibernation. Win7 (or CF) screws up that from time to time. I have a docking station at the office with mouse and a dedicated keyboard, another at the kitchen with one portable keyboard/pointing stick thing, and now another dock in the car with HD radio and space navigator/no keyboard. More importantantly in the car I have another screen and (edit: external sound card), and sometimes I have to reboot because CF/RR do not recognize some of that if it just wakes up (even when win7 is fine with it).

    I don't know why hardware detection is such a big deal, but apparently it is.
    Two different things here...removable device enumeration always has to occur (since there could be ipods, removable drives, etc plugged in)...its core hardware that shouldn't have to be. Things like internal hard drive, wifi adapter, sound card, cpu, etc. that rarely change shouldn't have to be re-detected every boot.

  4. #14
    Mod - iPad Forums RipplingHurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justchat_1 View Post
    Its all relative....nothing is instant on-you have to wait for the PC to boot. The question is, do you want to wait 15 seconds from the time you hit the power button until anything works...or would you rather have music in 10 and wifi in 15? Personally I prefer the latter and I think most other users would as well.
    Well, not the users who kept OEM equip where the carputer playing music is just another option for entertainment, but the only one for traffic, news, everything else.

    Two different things here...removable device enumeration always has to occur (since there could be ipods, removable drives, etc plugged in)...its core hardware that shouldn't have to be. Things like internal hard drive, wifi adapter, sound card, cpu, etc. that rarely change shouldn't have to be re-detected every boot.
    I agree but, at home/office I use wi-fi, 3G via usb in the car; sound card changes also, from internal at home/office to external Tascam usb (then the internal is for the rear passengers). So I see very much sense in MS approach if that's what you're pointing at.

    Maybe I'm in the exception here too, but still all notebooks are in the same category.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by justchat_1 View Post
    oh trust me I know lol

    Actually I haven't experienced a post-startup slowdown on windows since windows 98 (which is probably the last time you used windows)... but you do have a point and i think the right balance lies somewhere in the middle. Just because microsoft screwed the idea up doesn't mean the idea is flawed just microsofts implementation of it.
    Microsofts implementation is a free for all...everything tries to load at once after startup, and they all use the default thread priority which causes them to fight with UI apps. The proper approach to this is a managed init sequence post boot. Instead of having everything load at once you have a post boot script that handles loading everything not required to boot the PC and does so at a lower thread priority. This prevents resource lockup, lag, and the other negative effects of the microsoft approach. The goal of booting should be just that, to boot the PC. It should get the bare minimum running to display the UI and get music playing. Things like wifi are fine to not have running until 5-10seconds after boot if the boot time is 3-4seconds faster.
    The other half of this is getting rid of the hardware detection steps. Hardware enumeration should only occur when hardware changes, re-enumerating devices and detecting settings on every boot is a giant waste of time and resources...surely this 1980s approach is due for a modern update.
    As you can tell I'm not saying windows or any other OS does it "better" just that none of them do it the best way for a carPC.
    The last time I used windows was right before Vista came out. I was using XP before most people were. I won a free copy in a local university programming contest back when I was in high school. I actually like XP a lot. It's by far my favorite Windows OS. What I said was from experience of using XP. At some point my motherboard died and I didn't want to call up microsoft to get my key renewed when I reinstalled. I was using Linux a bit at that point and decided to make the full switch for a while. Never looked back after that. I continued using XP at work up until 2009. I've been all Linux everywhere since then.

    Linux booting has been improved greatly in the past 3 years or so. One of the major improvements have been faster filesystems and sreadahead. sreadahead loads frequently used blocks from the disk into memory in parallel during the boot process so user applications boot up instantly. This was useful in helping nghost start up quickly (even though it was already near instant to begin with). If it's not useful, it can always be removed which is another cool thing about Linux, you can totally modify the way it boots.

    Nasa's MeeGo boot at AFKfest was probably the fastest I've ever seen a system boot. I think he would have beat my best times with LinuxICE using Ubuntu.

    At any rate, it's nice to be able to boot fast, but I think that a power efficiency race will trump the booting arms race. Being able to stay on in some low power mode is far more useful then being dead asleep.
    Former author of LinuxICE, nghost, nobdy.
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  6. #16
    Mod - iPad Forums RipplingHurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripzero View Post

    At any rate, it's nice to be able to boot fast, but I think that a power efficiency race will trump the booting arms race. Being able to stay on in some low power mode is far more useful then being dead asleep.
    Couldn't agree more. Windows 7's hybrid sleep mode is a heaven, and I heard windows 8 will have more of that instant on feel. I'm hoping the computer will still be alive and connected somehow, so that it can wake itself up and pop a message or something and then go back to sleep, a bit like the iPhone or the iPad does. Right now hybrid sleep loses connection.

    As for Windows Embedded Automotive, I'd like to see more small OSs in the enthusiast/oem market. I'm amazed how fast and responsive the iPad is, compared to some netbooks I've seen. I'd kind of wish Windows E. Automotive would work like iOS, built for processors like those on the iPad/iPhone, Silverlight and HTML5 and all that graphic intensive crap ready, only more open.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipplingHurst View Post
    Couldn't agree more. Windows 7's hybrid sleep mode is a heaven, and I heard windows 8 will have more of that instant on feel. I'm hoping the computer will still be alive and connected somehow, so that it can wake itself up and pop a message or something and then go back to sleep, a bit like the iPhone or the iPad does. Right now hybrid sleep loses connection.
    Stuff like the smartphones is exactly what I'm talking about. "Dead asleep" to me means any form of hibernate/suspend/completely-off mode that breaks the ability to process things. Right now we have hardware that has the power envelope to do this: igepv2 and beagleboard. Atoms will eventually get there as well.
    Former author of LinuxICE, nghost, nobdy.
    Current author of Automotive Message Broker (AMB).
    Works on Tizen IVI. Does not represent anyone or anything but himself.

  8. #18
    Maximum Bitrate stonestatue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justchat_1 View Post
    Windows embedded requires a one time license fee...which makes it prohibitively expensive for anything less then 100 licenses (more like 1000)...
    Good. That'll prevent the noobs from taking advantage of this as a prepackaged plug n play solution they can buy from the nearest electronics store and separate them from the true enthusiasts (you and me).
    Check out my GMC Savana worklog.

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