ARM versus the Intel Atom -

**tripzero** · 10-31-2009, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by chunkyks

I thought winelib runs on ARM, no? You could still build and link your windows programs on Linux using it. I mean, I hate wine as much as the next guy, but it's not totally out of the question

Gary (-;

wine is not an emulator, it's not a virtual machine either. any ARM build of linux will likely have wine ported as well. But the problem is, Atmel Wine can translate x86 windows binaries. You need a virtual machine to emulate x86. I've seen Qemu + winXP and WOW on the PS3, but it was awfully slow (as are most things on the locked down PS3).

**chunkyks** · 10-31-2009, 02:04 PM

Actually I played a bit last night. winelib builds fine on both my ARM and my PPC. As justchat said, that doesn't help with the closed source windows apps, but it is a semi-legitimate migration path for many tools.

Gary (-;

**VegasGuy** · 10-31-2009, 05:00 PM

It occurs to me that ARM-based ICE units have been around for several years now. CD / DVD / MP3 / IPOD / NAV / BLUETOOTH...you name it and you can probably find it on eBay for under $400. But these are all essentially fixed-function devices. Typically, the entertainment side of the house runs in firmware and the Nav pieces run on WinCE or something similar.

So why is that? If the ARM architecture held any real promise as a viable carPC platform, surely the enterprising Chinese would have flooded the market with low-cost products.

I think the question posed in this thread has already been answered: ARM devices are well suited for low power, fixed-function applications, but bring no compelling advantages to a general purpose device. Just looking at the developmental toolsets currently available suggests a relatively narrow product focus.

In their particular pond, they are certainly the big fish, but its a small pond for a reason. As AMD has learned the hard way over the years, the only way to prosper in the processor marketplace is to be where Intel isn't. There's usually only room for one 800 pound gorilla in any given cage.

VegasGuy

**chunkyks** · 10-31-2009, 05:34 PM

Just looking at the developmental toolsets currently available suggests a relatively narrow product focus.

Ah, a true windows user.

I'm developing on my Linux ARM box using *exactly* the same tools as I am on my {x86,x86_64,PPC} Linux boxes, and cygwin. The toolchains are there. Fundamentally, cross-platform development isn't hard - but you have to use cross-platform tools.

For as long as people stick with the microsoft toolchains, ARM will continue to look like a difficult target [eg, Visual Studio for desktop apps, but a differently-targetted set of tools for WinCE].

Get a real cross-platform build tool [eg this, this, or this], use some real cross-platform toolkits [eg this, this, or this], and you'll magically find that it's possible to end up with software running on windows/cygwin, linux, OSX, solaris and others, with ARM/x86/x86_64/PPC/other hardware. In my case, I don't even have a single platform-specific #ifdef in my code. This isn't the only project I'm working on right now that can make the same claim
</rant>

IMHO the real reason for lack of ARM popularity is still, and will continue to be, "Windows inertia".

I maintain hope that one day people will realise that moving from Win98 to WinXP, or WinXP to Win7, or Office2002 to OfficeNET, or Office95 to Office2002, is actually no harder than moving from WinXP to a modern Ubuntu or Fedora, and a lot harder than moving from Office97 to OOo.

[Witness: The Ribbon]

So why is that? If the ARM architecture held any real promise as a viable carPC platform, surely the enterprising Chinese would have flooded the market with low-cost products.

And now, replace "ARM" with "Intel". I can't help but notice that most carPC stuff on these forums is using American built hardware.

Gary (-;

**VegasGuy** · 10-31-2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by chunkyks

Ah, a true windows user......

Gary (-;

Well said and true enough if your goal is to become the BetaMax of CarPCs... superior performance, outstanding specs and rave reviews all the way to your grave.

You haven't answered the ONLY important question: What value does it bring the customer? I'll give you every single point you make about tools and cross platform and so on, but the custormer doesn't care about any of that crap. All they want is everything, right now, and for free. They don't care how you deliver it, or what the secret sauce is, only that it looks cool and plays loud.

So I'll restate my point this way: If the virtues of the ARM are as compelling as you present, why hasn't someone (anyone) taken advantage of it to dominate the market?

You claim "windows inertia" is a problem, but surely not if a manufacturer's research showed that an ARM-based product would lay waste to the competition. It has been my experience that very rarely does the technical superiority of a particular product secure its place in the market. I wish that wasn't the case.

I'm not really much of a free market kind of guy, but in this case, I think the market has placed the ARM processor EXACTLY where it is most effective. That doesn't mean you couldn't build a super one-off carPC out of one, it's just hard to economically justify the need or effort.

Then again..maybe...."If you build it, they will come"

Happy Halloween,

VegasGuy

**chunkyks** · 10-31-2009, 07:11 PM

What value does it bring the customer?

Cheaper, and lower energy.

superior performance, outstanding specs and rave reviews all the way to your grave.

Except ARM has an extremely long & distinguished history, and has been making inroads because their chips are significantly better, in every way, at meeting a specific, currently-burgeoning, trend

I sound like a crazy evangelist, but I think the last couple points is exactly what matters; windows on netbooks blows, and netbooks are becoming more and more popular. I strongly believe that ARM is positioned to take up slack in a market that's expanding *right now*.

I think the other tipping point is finally having a good operating system with a good front end, tailored for the type of requirements and system that ARM fits well with.

Gary (-;

**VegasGuy** · 10-31-2009, 08:00 PM

Startin' to feel some of that old time religion there....

I think you make some reasonable points, and Android is certainly getting a lot of buzz. I'm not entirely sure I understand the purpose of a netbook (ie where and why it fits in vis a vis laptops, blackberrys, PDAs, cellphones), but again, its a product segment with a lot of buzz.

Currently the product price point is $300-400 and will probably fall from there. I'm not sure that processor cost is what's driving that price (more likely, display costs). Battery life? How much more would you have to get from ARM in order to present a compelling buy decision to the consumer? 20%? 30%? A Samsung N120 with an Atom 1.6 already offers 10.5 hours of use...how much more do you think would be needed?

I think you're probably right. It's VERY likely that somebody will try to bring an ARM-based device to market, possibly sporting Android or some kind of linux derivative. But I seriously doubt anyone will buy it BECAUSE it has an ARM processor, just as nobody's buying the N120 BECAUSE it has an Atom. It's the OS and Apps that drive the sale, and 70-80% of the market will give the Windoze solution the nod, possibly due to "inertia"

VegasGuy

**chunkyks** · 10-31-2009, 08:08 PM

Yeah, my apologies about the religious wars thing. This is one thing we'll just have to sit out.

To me, the value of a netbook is the fact that it's not a phone so doesn't require a subscription, but it does have a full[-ish] keyboard.

Gary (-;

**malcom2073** · 10-31-2009, 09:00 PM

People see netbooks as a more mobile version of a laptop, not as a MID akin to a blackberry or palm device. For that reason I agree with VegasGuy that they'll never take off because of the windows inertia. People buy them to get a tiny laptop, not to get a mobile internet device, so they will of course want all their standard windows laptop programs to run on them.

**chunkyks** · 12-12-2009, 03:46 PM

New slashdot article on the topic

Really, sign me up for an ARM laptop.

For that matter, at the eighty dollar price point including screen and keyboard, this might be enough to galvanise me into trying to make a real carputer.

Now we just need a bootable LinuxICE image for ARM :-D. I can't immediately find the reference, but I remember trip saying the other day that part of what's cool about LinuxICE maturing is that it's an easy way to cook whole bootable images?

Gary (-;