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Thread: Respond here if you want glare/brightness solution

  1. #61
    Low Bitrate pancakeboy's Avatar
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    Any updates This seems to be headed very much in the right direction.

  2. #62
    Variable Bitrate DaveB's Avatar
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    The update was post #57 in this thread.
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  3. #63
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    Hmmm.. I have a Xenarc, and would probably pay up to $80CDN for the film.. I mean.. $80 for a 7" chunk of film? Pretty steep...

    Then again, my screen almost completly washes out with the light coming in from the sunroof... having to close sunroof on summer trips where you need your GPS=uncool

  4. #64
    Variable Bitrate wallaceacura's Avatar
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    Any recent updates?

    Maybe the first post could be edited to show updates.


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  5. #65
    Low Bitrate nmbenson's Avatar
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    Info for everyone....

    OK folks here is the deal, recently one of your members contact me at FPD Design Group concerning a sunlight readable enhancement. After a long discussion with him he suggested I inform you all here so as to remove any misunderstanding concerning mods to LCDs and to dispell some myths about AR (anti-reflective) coatings and polarizer (the glass) mods.

    I noticed that some of you were interested in the new 3M technology, I was at that conference and sat in on the SIID meeting concerning the engineering specs at which to implement them. What 3M is offering is similar to transflective technology. So...

    Their are two forms of LCD displays:

    1) Transmissive LCD - uses backlights (1 - 6 depending upon size) these backlights force light through the LCD module creating the color display you see. However when a light source say the sun is imposed from outside that light transmissisity is diffused causing color clarity loss. Additionally manufacturers include a light collimating layer to try and reduce this and improve light transmissivity, the byproduct therein is glare.

    2) Reflective LCD - no backlights used, the polarizer concentrates light into a straight line to be reflected of highly poloshed tiny mirrors in the back of the LCD (where backlights would be) this light then exits through the lcd creating a sunlight readable LCD. Problems: due the design the pot pitch (viewing angle) is decreased immensly, and in low light environments the display is all but readable.

    The only option to blend these two technologies was in the 1000's a few years ago based mainly for military and industrial applications. This technology was called transflective enhancement.

    Given this information, and the inherent costs in adding this to a lets say Shap Aquos HDTV LCD was that for any large size 22" and up would cost 1000's still. However in the smaller displays it is available for much less and the American market reallyt has no drive to make this a standard for manufacture.

    Moving on...

    Your LCD you are using is simply put not made by lilliput or whatever brandname on the bezel. Even a toshiba desktop lcd wont have a toshiba panel in it, I know it sounds strange but the industry uses the cheapest product for manufacturing. Very common for lets say Sony makes a desktop lcd, but they use an LG display, then 6 months later for the exact same model number of monitor they use a toshiba display, then 6 months later another. The only thing that matters is for production is the final specs and many times competitor lcd manufacturers make same spec pieces then bid on large production lines. So it is more important to know what LCD you are using rather than the brand name thats on the bezel. Additionally you can buy open frame LCDs and request specific panels with specific specs from companies like Bell Micro or Avnet. FYI though, make sure you explain the video input you require and that you will need a controller board and inverter (OSD board optional)

    On to coatings...

    AR Coating - simply adds a layer to an existing LCD that is as sinmply defined antireflective. Some claim that with this increases battery life (for laptops and cel phone) which is a little missleading. The enhancement does little more than reduce glare, in reducing glair you could reduce the backlight output, in doing this you reduce power consumption. So it only reduces power use indirectly, additionally it does improve overall readability in two ways:

    1) less glare by way of slightly matted coor added (you can't see it though)

    2) less glare in reducing the viewing angle (pot pitch), with an AR coating you remove the ability for objects that reflect light to be seen in a reflection on the display... ex: hold an LCD with an AR coating directly in front of you, you may be able to see a light reflection of yourself but nothing else, hold the lcd at a 30 degree angle and it will look like there is no AR coating. This is because the AR coating has reduced the angles at which light can be reflected off the polarizer itself.

    With all this brings me to my point...

    The solution used in current markets of POS (point of sale systems like at McDonalds etc...) Cell phones in asia, military applictaions, and medical displays is a transflective enhancement. A transflective display in short is a hybrid of the two types of LCD's listed above... however the problem lies therein is cost.

    Transflective LCD - a process of removing the polarizer (in a clean room (you know white neumaticly sealed suits like at NASA)) adding a (sometimes 3M) AR coating to the interior layer of the lcd, and adding a reflective layer albeit transmissive film (like a two way mirror or one way glass) in front of the backlight, ie:

    backlight > one way light coating > lcd > AR coating > polarizer > AR coating

    this diagram is quite simplified however you should get the idea.

    OK now that that is out of the way, on to touch screens...

    The touch screens you currently use that are stock or aftermarket are... to put it mildly the biggest pieces of mother******* s*** that have ever come from companies such as 3M. The technology is so old it makes me sick when I think about it. The touchscreens you have on a store bought or internet purchased lcd cost somewhere around $15 dollars wholesale and are crap. They reduce visibility because of poor transmissivity due to adding another particle matted layer, and add to glare because they are not designed to ever be in outdoor environments. But first the 3 most common types of touchscreens:

    1) Resistive - physical touch moves the the screen physically and is registered using an algorythm to the OS

    2) Capacitive - means only an antity holding an electric charge can cue the screen to react (human touch or those little pens with a wire attached)

    3) Infrared - infrared lights measure xy coordinates (cool stuff but anything can make it react)

    Given this info now, if you require a touchscreen (which I gather 90% of you do), you can improve your readability by purchasing a much better touchscreen, but the problem again is price, they tend to be more expenseive... a lot more.

    In my business the most common need in my experience has been for GPS devices, Cell phones, or Auto LCDs that are displays that would benefit the consumer best; but alas the American market is always leaps and bounds behind asia in consumer technology. This I leave for a political forum...

    So I come here to let you know that there is a solution for your applications however it can be slightly costly. And until you see the finsihed result seems like too much. But if you can imagine an LCD that actually gets brighter in DIRECT sunlight? It can be done.

    Here is a price range for the transflective:

    $245 - $485 range for 6.4" up to 15" LCD transflective enhancement

    $150 - $210 for a highly transmissive touchscreen 6.4" up to 15"

    If you would like to read more you can goto:

    http://fpdgroup.com/pages/technology...e-displays.php

    And if you have any questions feel free to contact me.

    For those of you in SoCal I will be in the OC area this Saturday and can give a presentation of the technology at your meeting at UCI upon request.

    Go Anteaters...

  6. #66
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    Re: Info for everyone.... - transflective displays

    Quote Originally Posted by nmbenson

    <snip>

    Transflective LCD - a process of removing the polarizer (in a clean room (you know white neumaticly sealed suits like at NASA)) adding a (sometimes 3M) AR coating to the interior layer of the lcd, and adding a reflective layer albeit transmissive film (like a two way mirror or one way glass) in front of the backlight, ie:

    backlight > one way light coating > lcd > AR coating > polarizer > AR coating

    this diagram is quite simplified however you should get the idea.
    Wow, it's nice to see a post from someone like yourself who actually works on these professionally. Maybe you can answer this one question. The following article, "Transflective Liquid Crystal Displays", from "IEEE/OSA JOURNAL OF DISPLAY TECHNOLOGY", gives some good info and pictures:

    http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~spm01f01/...e_01498782.pdf

    My question is this:

    As far as transflective displays go, they all have some way of taking the ambient light (ie, sunlight etc) and harnessing it by reflecting it back out of the LCD in some way. And there is more than one way to do that (you mentioned "two way mirror or one way glass"). The methods mentioned in that article are openings-on-metal, half-mirror metal, and multi-layer dielectric transflectors. OK, so this part is clear enough.

    But what about the actual liquid crystal portion of the LCD? Obviously, if you want a transflective or reflective display, light needs to be able to get through the LCD before it can bounce off the transflector and exit the LCD again. That article mentions a whole bunch of types of LCD's suitable for transflective LCD's, and the chemistry is beyond me, but here are some of the names:

    - Absorption-type transflective LCD's (nematic phase or cholesteric phase)
    - Scattering-type transflective LCD's
    - Reflection-type transflective LCD's
    - Phase-retardation type transflective LCDs

    Now, I don't know too much about these different types, and I'm not looking for you to try to write a 10-page post trying to explain it to us, but here's my point. It seems like there is not only a special kind of LCD used for transflective displays, but there are in fact *many* types of LCD's made specifically for transflective displays, each with advantages/disadvantages. So how can we just take our LCD's which were designed to be *transmissive* and just change the glass/polarizers, add mirrors, etc?

    Doesn't the LCD itself have to be made for transmissive mode right out of the factory?

    Maybe the current technology used for our transmissive displays is good enough to be used for transflective too? This is one of the questions that has been lingering in the back of my mind for awhile, it would be great to hear an answer from someone who works on this type of thing. Thanks.

    -sean

    EDIT: I left my original post uneditted, but the sentence towards the end should have read "... have to be made for transflective mode right out of...". Sorry, that was a pretty important typo, but it looks like you answered the question I was really getting it anyways, thanks!

  7. #67
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    this post makes me feel st00pid :-\

  8. #68
    Low Bitrate nmbenson's Avatar
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    yes is the answer...

    To answer your question in three parts:

    1) Differences between:
    - Absorption-type transflective LCD's (nematic phase or cholesteric phase)
    - Scattering-type transflective LCD's
    - Reflection-type transflective LCD's
    - Phase-retardation type transflective LCDs

    The different type of LCDs out there are only different in their fundamental procees of taking light and turning it in to color. Without writing 10 pages on that nevermind a book the fundamental differences between do not concern the end user in what they see.

    2) Doesn't the LCD itself have to be made for transmissive mode right out of the factory?

    90% of LCDs are transmissive, if it has a backlight it uses the transmissive property

    3) Maybe the current technology used for our transmissive displays is good enough to be used for transflective too?

    For the most part they all are (for the most part). Some are better at handling the enhancement for an ad inifinitum number of engineering reasons. The worst panel I have seen is an AUO, some of the best are NEC, Mitsubishi, and Toshiba. But this is just based on overall net nits, viewing angle, and total DIRECT sunlight readability.

    I hope that answers your question, if not pound away.

  9. #69
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    One of your colleagues was suggesting the possibility of a cheap kit of correctly matched films that we could apply ourselves (albeit with the risk of dust since we don't have clean rooms). That's what I'm most interested in since I do not want to spend more on upgrading the monitor than I paid for it in the first place .
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  10. #70
    Low Bitrate nmbenson's Avatar
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    but...

    Pretty much what they are suggesting is an advanced lineup up light colimation AR coatings. Which is fine if thats all you want out of it, but it will not be direct sunlight readable, only maybe at most high ambiant light readable. Furthermore they are additional films being added between the light source (backlight) and end user, there will generally be loss nits. It is a cheaper and less effective fix... not solution. I just wish they would make these things outright and save everyone the trouble.

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