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Thread: is there ever going to be a fe

  1. #31
    Mod - all of it. SapporoGuy's Avatar
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    lolo, gotta try that! Thanks Bug!

    OSX and Windows offer different technology and the idea of even using mono on OSX seems to be a little stretched. However, since I don't code C in any flavor I really shouldn't be commenting

    The reason I keep shying away from learning to use mono to help with a OSX conversion seems a little round about to provide a solution on the OSX platform, since xcode does what mono/QT do anyway.

    So, I'm gonna agree with the idea that maybe OM on OSX maybe shouldn't be considered unless there are able bodies willing to spend the time.

    However, market share shouldn't be biased on the users in this community. In general, mac users are not so interested in tweeking/developing compared to the wintel community. In a sense, I'm a mac = I use my mac. That's it.

    But, does this mean that mac owners wouldn't want a mac car experience? I don't know. This could be due to the fact that marketing and mindshare is like zero. 1 metric would be ebay -- you just don't see the easy install setups for sale that you see for voompc and such.


    I stayed away for a bit to think about what I was working on ... a powerbook/macbook would probably be a killer setup since you have a battery with sleep that offers almost the same instant on that an iphone offers. I'm still looking into a mini to see if you can do the same. I am not wintel educated so I don't know if there is a similar setup for a windows/linux machine.

    Another however, the *tablet/*pad might be a better solution than standard hardware.
    In some ways I really wish the meego environment was more along in feature releases ...



    @ mac FE development ....
    I'm trying to learn cocoa (obj-c) but I'm having a hard time shifting from php to C.

    So, Anybody got a plugin + localization xcode base that I can play with?

    I can put together a simple project but I'm looking for a base xcode application that has:
    - a plugin architecture
    - localization architecture (I can live without this)

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    OSX and Windows offer different technology and the idea of even using mono on OSX seems to be a little stretched. However, since I don't code C in any flavor I really shouldn't be commenting

    The reason I keep shying away from learning to use mono to help with a OSX conversion seems a little round about to provide a solution on the OSX platform, since xcode does what mono/QT do anyway.
    Not to dumb it down too much but the language you write something in has absolutely nothing to do with the code that executes.. Other then java or a web language, whether you write it in c, obj-c, c#, c++, etc it all has access to exactly the same system functionality.
    The exact reason you want to do something that has the apple seal of approval is the exact reason I would talk you out of it. By going with an OSX only solution you now have to do everything 100% from scratch....every plugin, every skin, every feature you have to create yourself. How long do you think thats going to take you?
    If you just answered that question...multiply it by ten-trust me...
    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    So, I'm gonna agree with the idea that maybe OM on OSX maybe shouldn't be considered unless there are able bodies willing to spend the time.

    However, market share shouldn't be biased on the users in this community. In general, mac users are not so interested in tweeking/developing compared to the wintel community. In a sense, I'm a mac = I use my mac. That's it.

    But, does this mean that mac owners wouldn't want a mac car experience? I don't know. This could be due to the fact that marketing and mindshare is like zero. 1 metric would be ebay -- you just don't see the easy install setups for sale that you see for voompc and such.


    I stayed away for a bit to think about what I was working on ... a powerbook/macbook would probably be a killer setup since you have a battery with sleep that offers almost the same instant on that an iphone offers. I'm still looking into a mini to see if you can do the same. I am not wintel educated so I don't know if there is a similar setup for a windows/linux machine.

    Another however, the *tablet/*pad might be a better solution than standard hardware.
    In some ways I really wish the meego environment was more along in feature releases ...
    I think it was you that I had this conversation with (if not I apologize)... but the underlying OS has absolutely nothing to do with the user experience. In a properly designed setup the user is interacting with the front end 100%...whether that has OSX, windows or linux under it really doesn't matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    @ mac FE development ....
    I'm trying to learn cocoa (obj-c) but I'm having a hard time shifting from php to C.

    So, Anybody got a plugin + localization xcode base that I can play with?

    I can put together a simple project but I'm looking for a base xcode application that has:
    - a plugin architecture
    - localization architecture (I can live without this)
    You have to be more specific...what type of plugin architecture example are you looking for? localization as in resource localization?

  3. #33
    Mod - all of it. SapporoGuy's Avatar
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    @ localization
    Meaning the ability to translate the software into other languages, not just language files but including cultural issues, measurements, currency, dates and the direction of language.
    However, simply put ... language files

    @ plug-in
    I want to stay away from the monolithic application as much as possible. However, I do not want to run into the index-php problem that many internet based software runs into. I'm thinking that a core should be just a controller to delegate what is happening rather than controlling all that is happening.

    @ programming time
    I do believe you and you're probably wrong on the time.
    Writing is x10 while debugging is like x30-40 ...

    I am confused about the time issue. It was mentioned that porting to osx is going to take time but writing 100% OSX code will take time.

    I'm looking at OSX since this will convert into saved time for other non-carpc projects that I have been dreaming about. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone mentality.

    @ GUI/UI experience regarding base OS
    I'm not sure if I follow you here. From what I gather (once again lack of experience talking) I would judge this on the base code kit that you are using.
    projects such as: xcode, mono, QT, or whatever ...
    I mention "judge" because each of these base codes offer a quick solution but yet you are restricted by what these packages offer and by what the host OS offers.
    So, in a way you either use only what the host OS offers or you code it yourself.

    From what I've seen, OSX xcode offers a pretty sweet deal. You can also export to Wintel and probably Linux.

    @ Apple's seal of approval
    I'm not sure where this argument is coming up from.
    iOS is a walled garden only in the sense if you want to release to the general public.
    OSX doesn't have a wall or seal approval that I'm aware of ...

    Actually it's a great deal!
    I downloaded xcode for free, Apple maintains xcode and I can still use different flavors of C or what not.

    iOS is $99 but you get access to a huge market. You do Steve Job's holy blessing though.

    @ wondering
    This should be asked over in OMville, but why didn't you take a linux distro and do a Nghost like project?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    @ localization
    Meaning the ability to translate the software into other languages, not just language files but including cultural issues, measurements, currency, dates and the direction of language.
    However, simply put ... language files

    @ plug-in
    I want to stay away from the monolithic application as much as possible. However, I do not want to run into the index-php problem that many internet based software runs into. I'm thinking that a core should be just a controller to delegate what is happening rather than controlling all that is happening.
    Yea i figured... language files are all you..globalization (the term used for localizing dates, currency, measurements, etc) probably has a few good xcode examples but not my area of expertise-hopefully someone else can chime in. By plugins I meant architecture...in process verse thread or process isolation. Static calls verse an IPC method...etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    @ programming time
    I do believe you and you're probably wrong on the time.
    Writing is x10 while debugging is like x30-40 ...

    I am confused about the time issue. It was mentioned that porting to osx is going to take time but writing 100% OSX code will take time.

    I'm looking at OSX since this will convert into saved time for other non-carpc projects that I have been dreaming about. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone mentality.
    lol too true... well the time issue was that it was significant to justify the time it would take to port with such a small userbase. However, the time it would take to port some osx functions into an existing front end verse the time it would take to write something from scratch is significantly different (15-20 hours verse 250-500hours just for a beta).

    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    @ GUI/UI experience regarding base OS
    I'm not sure if I follow you here. From what I gather (once again lack of experience talking) I would judge this on the base code kit that you are using.
    projects such as: xcode, mono, QT, or whatever ...
    I mention "judge" because each of these base codes offer a quick solution but yet you are restricted by what these packages offer and by what the host OS offers.
    So, in a way you either use only what the host OS offers or you code it yourself.

    From what I've seen, OSX xcode offers a pretty sweet deal. You can also export to Wintel and probably Linux.
    Yea thats where I think some of the confusion is...your not restricted by any of the language choices...this is native programming not web design. Some languages have easier or harder ways to do things..some offer different levels of abstraction but in the end its all pretty much the same just different syntax.

    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    @ Apple's seal of approval
    I'm not sure where this argument is coming up from.
    iOS is a walled garden only in the sense if you want to release to the general public.
    OSX doesn't have a wall or seal approval that I'm aware of ...

    Actually it's a great deal!
    I downloaded xcode for free, Apple maintains xcode and I can still use different flavors of C or what not.

    iOS is $99 but you get access to a huge market. You do Steve Job's holy blessing though.
    I didn't mean apple seal of approval as in restriction (sorry re-reading that I was pretty unclear)...I just meant that was apples recommended programming environment. Like Microsofts visual studio its offered free of charge to try to encourage development on their platform (xcode is OSX only btw).

    Quote Originally Posted by SapporoGuy View Post
    @ wondering
    This should be asked over in OMville, but why didn't you take a linux distro and do a Nghost like project?
    I've been working on an instant-on distro based on tinycore linux which has ~3-4 second cold boot...but theres a good bit of work left to go before its ready.

  5. #35
    Variable Bitrate VmtSquad's Avatar
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    Hey man, I would be interested into testing and helping you coding the new AMP Design. I've been running ICE3 since December without any reboot or failing

    AMP is doing some little things that ICE3 lacks, simply using iTunes as a player thats a WIN over ICE3, but the display is not at the level of ICE3 yet.

    So let me know if interested we could connect with Skype and check what we could end with...



    Quote Originally Posted by aychamo View Post
    I'm the original AMP developer. I'm obviously biased, but I still think it's the best front for a car based mac. The touch screen stuff worked, the music worked, video worked, pictures worked, it has some animations, etc. It could launch applications, it had a web browser, and I think I even wrote a war driver thing for it. Honestly I have no idea if the code even compiles anymore or anything like that. Like Bug Byte said, I'm just not aware of any decent Nav software.

    Perhaps a radical re-skinning and updating of AMP would be a nice front end?

    Also, I have no way of testing this, but if I remember AMP uses iTunes to play songs? Or I think it used iTunes for something. It wouldn't be difficult to re-write it to use iTunes to play songs, and then you could poll iTunes to get the current playing song info. That would be great for using an iPhone to control the playback of music through the front end. I think bluehawk is doing something along these lines, but they may be using a different framework to do it, I have no idea what's out there now. Also, it would be nice to remove the coredata thing from AMP and just have it parse out the itunesXML on startup.

    I just feel so conflicted about front ends. I just don't know what I'd use it for. I get in, my built in XM radio turns on, and I have the Opie & Anthony show come on. If I don't want to hear that, I have either hundreds of music channels, or I can plug my iPhone in.
    VmtSquad - I sold my soul to Honda!
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  6. #36
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    So I scrolled through this thread but I am ignorant when it comes to code and all that. I was excited when they announced apps for the new os thinking this would be the best/easiest way for someone that knows what they are doing to make it easy to hook up a mac mini.

    I am looking to do this as soon as a decient solution becomes available. Hopefully some one steps up. I could see a very stripped down version with iAds and then be able to sell upgrades via in app purchases.

  7. #37
    Constant Bitrate golfguy's Avatar
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    ... the underlying OS has absolutely nothing to do with the user experience. In a properly designed setup the user is interacting with the front end 100%...whether that has OSX, windows or linux under it really doesn't matter.
    That's theoretically true, but the programmer's experience in the different environments makes it hard to break away from a Window/Mac OS perspective. For example: Centrafuse looks nothing like Windows visually, but it's unmistakably a Windows app in user experience. I want to like it, but many of the details turn me off. That's not a criticism of Centrafuse, but rather an artifact of my 25 years of Mac OS use. I have a certain expectation of how an app should work versus a Windows user/dev's perspective. It's incredibly difficult to build a cross-platform app that makes users of both platforms comfortable. The different expectations are so hard to bridge.
    Any day is a good day for golf.

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    Speedy was traded for a 2004 350z - Install complete except for permanent screen installation.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfguy View Post
    That's theoretically true, but the programmer's experience in the different environments makes it hard to break away from a Window/Mac OS perspective. For example: Centrafuse looks nothing like Windows visually, but it's unmistakably a Windows app in user experience. I want to like it, but many of the details turn me off. That's not a criticism of Centrafuse, but rather an artifact of my 25 years of Mac OS use. I have a certain expectation of how an app should work versus a Windows user/dev's perspective. It's incredibly difficult to build a cross-platform app that makes users of both platforms comfortable. The different expectations are so hard to bridge.
    Well the whole point is that this isn't supposed to be a windows or an osx experience its supposed to be safe to operate in a moving vehicle. The major OSs have some UI choices that would be horrible in a vehicle....but i'm interested to hear what you mean. Can you give some examples?

  9. #39
    Constant Bitrate golfguy's Avatar
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    @justchat_1: Agreed that the UI has to be modified to be useful/safe in a car. As far as Centrafuse, the most obvious example of my experience was specifying a path for the music libraries and such. It used custom widgets and UI, but took the Windows conventions straight from a file path selector window. Those are the kinds of things that are hard to make appealing to cross platform audiences. I've noticed that Java apps seem to especially suffer from that - they don't look good in Windows or Mac. This is just my $0.02.
    Any day is a good day for golf.

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