Mp3Car's Sean Clark on 'Why Tablets?'

**RipplingHurst** · 10-20-2011, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by optikalefx

Gizmo I totally see where you coming from with the tabletPC but, for lack of a better term, is no longer a tablet. And I use that term because of what people generally think of now when you say 'tablet'. What you have, is a tabletPC which is not the same as the devices we are referring to. The reason these new tablets are so much more popular is not because of marketing though. Its because of the follow (pluses) IMO
- multitouch
- thin
- not windows
- app markets

I was with you up to now, but now you lost me. That's spreading misinformation. Tablet PCs ARE tablets, just a bit heavier/bigger (but not by much, still lighter than a $1k Apple MacBook Air, so it's relative), and more useful.

- Have you checked my thread on the Acer W500? It really looks not much different than an Asus Transformer or the Acer A100. Here's a pic (from here):"

I say, if you HAVE to run windows app and multiple usb ports, this is a great compromise. If you're going to mod your truck for an 8-10" lilliput, I'd rather go with that any time.

- Multitouch is widespread now, basically it's actually harder to find a TabletPC WITHOUT a multi touch screen. That's the norm. It's adequate with Win7, but if you're running windows 8, it feels just like (or better) an iPad as far as responsiveness and precision goes. And Windows 8 is just around the corner.

- It can't have Windows? So when windows 8 starts shipping running or ARM tablets (7 and 10"), then it won't be a "tablet" because it runs Windows? WTF? LOL.

App markets? well...what can I say, maybe I missed your point? There are Android tablets out there that have no access to the Google Android Market, while you can have access to any market you want on a tabletPC (say, mp3car's own?). Windows 8 will surely have an app market though, but it's windows, so maybe it's not what you mean?

Sure, touchscreen PCs have been around for a long time, bill gates said it himself when asked about the iPad before it launched. People weren't looking for a laptop they can touch. They wanted a new form factor, and they didn't want windows.

Have you tried Windows 8? Have you tried running Windows with a car front end? I'm not sure why we would care about what is the OS doing the things behind the scenes anyway, if say you're running CF?

So for in car use - I dont think tabletPCs will ever get a grasp on the market. But tablets will, and are.

Well, that's your prediction. I say, let's see what happens.

I think you're wrong basically because:

1. "double din" standard is dead. People aren't going to be constrained by 7" in the near future, because there's no reason to. The only reason double din is still an issue is because lots of carputer people will likely to have old cars. But if you checked the new Ford Focus, maybe the upcoming Civics and Scions, I think the trend will be, since you have to modify the dash, you better not care much precisely about tablet size.

2. Windows 8 will run in ARM devices, and it will probably be easier to interface with the likes of Fusion Brains and Arduinos and usb devices in general (HD Radio, Sat radio, etc.). So yeah, sd card+USB, will make the Windows 8 tablets a contender. Maybe. But I wouldn't rule them out now.

**GizmoQ** · 10-20-2011, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by optikalefx

Gizmo I totally see where you coming from with the tabletPC but, for lack of a better term, is no longer a tablet. And I use that term because of what people generally think of now when you say 'tablet'. What you have, is a tabletPC which is not the same as the devices we are referring to. The reason these new tablets are so much more popular is not because of marketing though. Its because of the follow (pluses) IMO
- multitouch
- thin
- not windows
- app markets

I always thought the charter of this forum was to inform, educate, and innovate. Since when do we pander to the ignorance of the masses.

TabletPCs are tablets! Its where the term's definition originated. Sure they've been overrun by the Android and Apple Tablets, but that doesn't change the definition of the term. Let's not forget there are several other operating systems used in tablets, too, i.e., Symbion, Windows Mobile, et. al.

All I'm saying is lets rise above the hype and educate the uninformed. Let's strive to use terms correctly. Every few years, we have a lively discussion on the definition of "CarPC" because it a term we coined and somewhere within that interval, someone uses the term to describe something that the majority thinks is inappropriate. We don't all agree, but it gives the community and passers-by something to think about when they use the term. I don't know how many times we, in the RR community, have had to educate new users on what is a skin and a screen and a layer. If we don't all use the same terms with the same definitions, communication is misunderstood. If you "decide" to change the definition of a term, you'll spend more time explaining your definition than getting your point across.

If your intent is to exclude TabletPCs from your discussion then you need to use a more specific term than "Tablet". We have a "Laptop, Netbook, Tablet, UMPC, etc" subForum and within it a Fujitsu and an iPad, and an Android subForum. Sure we don't treat them as equals but they all fall within the definition of Tablet, even so do the UMPC, and some others. You represent this forum and the store and if you "decide" TabletPCs are not "Tablets" then the community and passers-by will assume that is the position of MP3Car. Those of us that have been in the TabletPC community will think you a panderer, stupid or ignorant (and after my diatribe, ignorant can be eliminated). If your intent is to exclude TabletPCs from your discussion then you need to use a more specific term than "Tablet."

**optikalefx** · 10-20-2011, 07:35 PM

The issue is that there is no better or more specific name for this new form factor. The men in charge decided to call it a tablet, even though tablets have existed in the past. So you have tablets that run full OSes and tablets that run Tablet OSes.

Now you have to ask what do people generally want. Why is a desktop OS better than a tablet OS. or vice versa?

- are the front ends for desktop OSes really more user friendly then SOME apps made for tablets?
- Since tablet OSes have crazy battery life and are basically instant on, does that make more vialbe for car use?
- does size matter?
- does the screen matter? How do they compare?

With the onset of all these, i think this topic deserves a showdown. What hardware is good for what purpose. I think that would be really informative for the masses.

**CohesiveTech** · 10-20-2011, 09:18 PM

Is it possible the point is being missed? Technology evolves. What used to be called a tablet is no more important than what used to be called a workstation. The tablet OS and the devices that have risen from it have changed the world. Indeed, the modern tablet and smartphone are more revolutionary to the computing than my original IBM PC was in 1984.
Computing power is no longer the point. Sexy and conveinence is now the norm in computing. Smartphones and tablets hold the same digitized music, run the same applications, and have almost the same computing power as any old-school tablet or laptop.
Don't underestimate the power of multitouch either. It will be the convention in HMI from now on. Eveyone wants to be Tom Cruise in Minority Report. The keyboard and mouse will dissapear soon.
Lastly I submit that dedicated hardware is history. Your smartphone will be your computer from now on. The profile a behavour will change based on its dock, but the core remains the same. It is all about conveinence now. Don't beleive me? Look around; who is hiring developers now? And for what?
So the best solution for mobile computing is a dockable smartphone or tablet (they differ in only size) that when docked communicates with an embedded SBC that touches the hardware.
So say we all.

**optikalefx** · 10-20-2011, 09:37 PM

I agree, and refer to the "black box" in the post. I think there will exist some hardware connection between ___ device ____ and the car.

**HiJackZX1** · 10-20-2011, 09:37 PM

I agree with a lot of your points. I have to admit I ditched my laptop at work for a Android Tab, and eventually I stopped using that because my HTC EVO did things even better and I just pop it in my pocket when done.

**soundman98** · 10-20-2011, 10:02 PM

ok, i'll try to take some of it on..

Originally Posted by optikalefx

The issue is that there is no better or more specific name for this new form factor. The men in charge decided to call it a tablet, even though tablets have existed in the past. So you have tablets that run full OSes and tablets that run Tablet OSes.

Now you have to ask what do people generally want. Why is a desktop OS better than a tablet OS. or vice versa?

desktop os's allow for external programs like rr, centrafuse, open office, etc. compared to most tablet os's, they are generally more 'open'-- primarily in the hardware that they can be run on-- component-based pc's, but in some aspects, also open in the term of how easy it can be to modify portions of the OS.

tablet os's--it sounds weird to say because as was said above, it's kinda like trying to put a ford pickup truck in a different category of vehicles then a chevy pickup truck.. 'tablet' is a category just like 'laptop' and defines the form factor, not the software..

anyways, the 2 major players are apple's IOS and google's Android. android is the more 'open' of the 2-- there are many forums, hacks, and tweaked versions of android available. ios is much more locked down-- there are ways to tweak certain things via jail breaking, but it goes against apples product view, and they vehemently try to break any jailbreak releases as soon as they come out. so overall, ios is good for someone who doesn't want to modify anything, or have a chance to accidentally modify anything.

- are the front ends for desktop OSes really more user friendly then SOME apps made for tablets?

user friendly-ness is a difficult area.

the desktop os interfaces are really designed by users for users. there is not much focused development from large companies due to the minuscule return on investment.

the new batch of tablets are optimized for mobility, and have had millions of dollars behind developing the interface.

so while the new tablets do have a better mobile interface, i am not sure that they perform better in-car because of some of the legal constrictions large companies face, while 'for users, by users' interfaces are designed around user requests and needs, and are not limited by legal issues as much, meaning that they become more focused on what more people really want.

Originally Posted by optikalefx

- Since tablet OSes have crazy battery life and are basically instant on, does that make more vialbe for car use?

i don't see why battery life matters in-car. i can understand 15-30 min, but why do you need longer when you can use the car battery?

instant-on is something that microsoft has proved can be solved at the OS level, and the promises of win 8 mean that instant-on would not be limited to tablets.

Originally Posted by optikalefx

- does size matter?

i guess it is important to look at what 'size' your taking about. a component-based carpc has many parts, but usually all you see is the screen, maybe a keyboard. in this respect, a component-based system usually can appear smaller then a tablet based system.

Originally Posted by optikalefx

- does the screen matter? How do they compare?

yes the screen matters, just like the rest of the hardware. overall, i do believe that the screens included with most tablets are better then most separate screens, but like in my case, the problem lies in what i need the pc to do, or the fact that i would need a pc to program a sound processor use the tablet.... a tablet simply won't control my audio setup for reasons i described before, so the great screens that they have are outside of my use.

**dscustoms** · 10-20-2011, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by optikalefx

Rob - I'm not so sure that stat is accurate - and the car PC developers may disagree.

You think the market is larger than that? I'd say its probably a tenth of that number still!

I'm in the process of quitting again, because the software isn't ready to do what I want. Hardware I have, it was working, but the software, that's the key. I'm installing a normal 7" touch headunit and my iPad 2. It will be wonderful.

For those who say it isn't enough, you are FAR from the majority. In fact, your (our) type of dream system is so far from the norm that it will always be a tinkerers delight, and I doubt there will ever be mainstream product support. I've been there, done that. I'm just over the hassle right now. I need reliable, functional and beautiful. I'll have that with the iPad and integration. I can make some sacrifices, especially how busy I am with life right now, and the tablet is the perfect way to achieve what I need.

As tablet tech develops I expect we will see add ons and OEM integration, most likely in the form of an ipad dock in your dash... Fancy!

**TweakEn** · 10-22-2011, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by dscustoms

You think the market is larger than that? I'd say its probably a tenth of that number still!

I'm in the process of quitting again, because the software isn't ready to do what I want. Hardware I have, it was working, but the software, that's the key. I'm installing a normal 7" touch headunit and my iPad 2. It will be wonderful.

I totally agree. I am absolutely frustrated with the lack of quality front end software available for Car PC's. People have been trying to make CarPC systems for the like 5 years now, and the software still isn't there yet. For example CF 4.0 came out recently and added absolutely nothing to the core useability (Fast response and quicker navigation of the elements). How hard is it to make an interface that's easy to navigate and do the things we want?! These are dual core computers in our cars! The Android OS does it better than any Car front end software, and they're not even trying to make it for a Car. And it doesn't look like cell manufacturers are going to start making an Android car deck soon. (That Parrot POS android deck doesn't count as an android deck)

It looks to me like Tablet is the only option now, so I'll likely be selling my CarPC parts soon and getting something like a 7" Galaxy Tab to do the work, BETTER, FASTER, AND CHEAPER than a CarPC.

I've had a CarPC for a little over a year now and it's more frustrating than it's worth.

**HiJackZX1** · 10-22-2011, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by TweakEn

I totally agree. I am absolutely frustrated with the lack of quality front end software available for Car PC's. People have been trying to make CarPC systems for the like 5 years now, and the software still isn't there yet. For example CF 4.0 came out recently and added absolutely nothing to the core useability (Fast response and quicker navigation of the elements). How hard is it to make an interface that's easy to navigate and do the things we want?! These are dual core computers in our cars! The Android OS does it better than any Car front end software, and they're not even trying to make it for a Car. And it doesn't look like cell manufacturers are going to start making an Android car deck soon. (That Parrot POS android deck doesn't count as an android deck)

It looks to me like Tablet is the only option now, so I'll likely be selling my CarPC parts soon and getting something like a 7" Galaxy Tab to do the work, BETTER, FASTER, AND CHEAPER than a CarPC.

I've had a CarPC for a little over a year now and it's more frustrating than it's worth.

CF4 was a disappointment for lots. Like I have been preaching over there, they should have released it as 3.7 with all the fixes, held on to the connect, and pay market, then once they had a new nav engine, they release it as CF 4.0. I think what CI did was a bad move. Shoot, some people have dual core, quad core, and I even have a hexacore, yet it can not reach its full potential because CF is iffy, especially with no GPU support.

I will not give up on my install yet. I am hoping that CI gets its act together and puts in place a proper CF 4. If not then I will have to go to RR, but hopefully find a RR expert to help me, lol. Also remember, Car PC is a hobby. Its not meant to be a drop in and go solution. I think tablets have blurred this line and now new comers are coming into the hobby with unrealistic expectations. Im going on 3 1/2 years with my install. In the middle I tried to go back to a head unit and hated it. I am determined to get my pc setup to work (which is working awesome on my test bench).