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Thread: Anyone else use e-cigs?

  1. #1
    FLAC muldrick's Avatar
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    Anyone else use e-cigs?

    Quit smoking real cigs in May.
    These electronic cigs are great. Anyone else using them?
    They still contain nicotine, but all the other harmfull crap is gone.
    Nicotine in itself is not neccesarily harmfull.

  2. #2
    Low Bitrate nalav's Avatar
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    These things are illegal in multiple countries. In the US they are under high scrutiny and will likely soon be illegal. The FDA has found that they contain carcinogens. According to Wikipedia, "The term carcinogen refers to any substance, radionuclide or radiation that is an agent directly involved in the promotion of cancer or in the increase of its propagation." The manufacturers lie about what's actually in the product. There were some that claimed to be nicotine free, yet upon testing, they actually did contain nicotine. I don't trust this crap, it actually looks to me like it's worse than a normal cigarette, if for no other reason than people seem to think it's not.

    You might want to look at nicotine research. Did you know it's toxic? It's a lot more dangerous than you seem to think.

    I highly advocate quitting smoking, whether they be real or fake cigarettes.

    That said, I think I'll step out for a smoke. I smoke real Marlboros, not the wannabe fake crap.

  3. #3
    FLAC muldrick's Avatar
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    Ok, glad to hear your opinion. I assumed that would be the first response. (related to what the FDA find) That's the thing with the FDA...scare everyone. They're good.
    I really didn't post to get into a debate.
    But please read this: (the FDA is missing some facts):


    First we have the press release:

    Quote:
    FDA NEWS RELEASE

    For Immediate Release: July 22, 2009
    Media Inquiries: Siobhan DeLancey, 301-796-4668, [email protected]
    Consumer Inquiries: 888-INFO-FDA
    FDA and Public Health Experts Warn About Electronic Cigarettes

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration today announced that a laboratory analysis of electronic cigarette samples has found that they contain carcinogens and toxic chemicals such as diethylene glycol, an ingredient used in antifreeze.
    Electronic cigarettes, also called “e-cigarettes,” are battery-operated devices that generally contain cartridges filled with nicotine, flavor and other chemicals. The electronic cigarette turns nicotine, which is highly addictive, and other chemicals into a vapor that is inhaled by the user.
    These products are marketed and sold to young people and are readily available online and in shopping malls. In addition, these products do not contain any health warnings comparable to FDA-approved nicotine replacement products or conventional cigarettes. They are also available in different flavors, such as chocolate and mint, which may appeal to young people.
    Public health experts expressed concern that electronic cigarettes could increase nicotine addiction and tobacco use in young people. Jonathan Winickoff, M.D., chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics Tobacco Consortium and Jonathan Samet, M.D., director of the Institute for Global Health at the University of Southern California, joined Joshua Sharfstein, M.D., principal deputy commissioner of the FDA, and Matthew McKenna, M.D., director of the Office of Smoking and Health for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to discuss the potential risks associated with the use of electronic cigarettes.
    “The FDA is concerned about the safety of these products and how they are marketed to the public,” said Margaret A. Hamburg, M.D., commissioner of food and drugs.
    Because these products have not been submitted to the FDA for evaluation or approval, at this time the agency has no way of knowing, except for the limited testing it has performed, the levels of nicotine or the amounts or kinds of other chemicals that the various brands of these products deliver to the user.
    The FDA’s Division of Pharmaceutical Analysis analyzed the ingredients in a small sample of cartridges from two leading brands of electronic cigarettes. In one sample, the FDA’s analyses detected diethylene glycol, a chemical used in antifreeze that is toxic to humans, and in several other samples, the FDA analyses detected carcinogens, including nitrosamines. These tests indicate that these products contained detectable levels of known carcinogens and toxic chemicals to which users could potentially be exposed.
    The FDA has been examining and detaining shipments of e-cigarettes at the border and the products it has examined thus far meet the definition of a combination drug-device product under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. The FDA has been challenged regarding its jurisdiction over certain e-cigarettes in a case currently pending in federal district court. The agency is also planning additional activities to address its concerns about these products.
    Health care professionals and consumers may report serious adverse events (side effects) or product quality problems with the use of e-cigarettes to the FDA's MedWatch Adverse Event Reporting program either online, by regular mail, fax or phone.
    Online: MedWatch: The FDA Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program
    Regular Mail: use postage-paid FDA form 3500 available at: Download Forms and mail to MedWatch, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20852-9787
    Fax: (800) FDA-0178
    Phone: (800) FDA-1088

    Next is the FDA Safety Alert:

    Quote:
    Electronic Cigarettes
    Audience: Pediatric healthcare professionals and consumers
    [Posted 07/22/2009] FDA notified healthcare professionals and patients that a laboratory analysis of electronic cigarette samples has found that they contain carcinogens and toxic chemicals such as diethylene glycol, an ingredient used in antifreeze. Electronic cigarettes, also called “e-cigarettes,” are battery-operated devices that generally contain cartridges filled with nicotine, flavor and other chemicals. The electronic cigarette turns nicotine, which is highly addictive, and other chemicals into a vapor that is inhaled by the user. These products are marketed and sold to young people and are readily available online and in shopping malls. They are also available in different flavors, such as chocolate and mint, which may appeal to young people.
    The FDA’s Division of Pharmaceutical Analysis analyzed the ingredients in a small sample of cartridges from two leading brands of electronic cigarettes. In one sample, the FDA’s analyses detected diethylene glycol, a chemical used in antifreeze that is toxic to humans, and in several other samples, the FDA analyses detected carcinogens, including nitrosamines. These products do not contain any health warnings comparable to FDA-approved nicotine replacement products or conventional cigarettes. Because these products have not been submitted to the FDA for evaluation or approval, at this time the agency has no way of knowing, except for the limited testing it has performed, the levels of nicotine or the amounts or kinds of other chemicals that the various brands of these products deliver to the user.
    Health care professionals and consumers may report serious adverse events (side effects) or product quality problems with the use of e-cigarettes to the FDA's MedWatch Adverse Event Reporting program either online, by regular mail, fax or phone.
    [07/22/2009 - Information on E-cigarettes - FDA]

    Some portions of that are debatable. Some are not. Here are the facts:

    Regarding Diethylene Glycol:

    Looking at the Health New Zealand study1, the presence of Diethylene Glycol was not tested for. They seem to have based their tests on manufacturer ingredient lists and known tobacco carcinogens.
    So what is Diethylene Glycol? The MSDS2 shows that chronic exposure to Diethylene Glycol can cause lesions on the liver and kidneys, as well as damage to the same organs. In the case of inhalation, the only first aid recommended is removal from the source to fresh air. The toxicalogical information is as follows:


    Quote:
    Oral rat LD50: 12565 mg/kg. Skin rabbit LD50: 11.89 g/kg Irritation: eye rabbit, standard Draize: 50 mg mild. Investigated as a tumorigen and reproductive effector.
    --------\Cancer Lists\------------------------------------------------------
    ---NTP Carcinogen---
    Ingredient Known Anticipated IARC Category
    ------------------------------------ ----- ----------- -------------
    Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6) No No None

    This shows that Diethylene Glycol is not a known carcinogen, nor is it expected to be found as one in the future. In addition, the dose required to kill half of the sample of rats tested is 12.565 g/kg and 11.89 g/kg for rabbits. Assuming this can be extended to humans, an average adult male would have to ingest 855.925 g to receive a lethal dose.
    Is Diethylene Glycol the main ingredient in antifreeze? The EPA3 has this to say about antifreeze variations:


    Quote:
    Antifreeze typically contains ethylene glycol as its active ingredient, but some manufacturers market propylene glycol-based antifreeze, which is less toxic to humans and pets. The acute, or short-term, toxicity of propylene glycol, especially in humans, is substantially lower than that of ethylene glycol. Regardless of which active ingredient the spent antifreeze contains, heavy metals contaminate the antifreeze during service. When contaminated, particularly with lead, used antifreeze can be considered hazardous and should be reused, recycled, or disposed of properly.

    Ethylene Glycol is the main ingredient in antifreeze. While straight antifreeze is toxic, the main hazard is from used antifreeze, which absorbs heavy metals.

    What about Nitrosamines? Nitrosamines are carcinogens. Tobacco specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) are found in the liquid used by Ruyan in their cartridges. According to the Health New Zealand report1, the amount increases with the amount of nicotine, and the average is 3.928 Ng (or parts per billion [ppb]). The breakdown is as follows:


    Quote:
    Nitrosamines
    0mg - 0.260 Ng (ppb)
    6mg - 3.068 Ng
    11mg - 4.200 Ng
    16mg - 8.183 Ng

    The highest amount found was in 16mg liquid, which had an average of 8.183 Ng. In comparison, Nicorette Gum (which is approved as an NRT) contains about 8 Ng. To put that number into perspective, Swedish moist snuff contains between 1000 and 2400 ppb nitrosamines, and unburned tobacco from cigarettes contains around 1230 ppb.

    1 http://www.healthnz.co.nz/2ndSafetyReport_9Apr08.pdf
    2 DIETHYLENE GLYCOL
    3 Antifreeze | Common Wastes & Materials | US EPA

  4. #4
    Maximum Bitrate SjLucky's Avatar
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    Save a cowboy smoke a camel...

    e-cigs? come on... if everyone smoked pot we wouldnt even have this product...

    Pot The Original Cigarette

  5. #5
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    I've been using them for about eight months now. Started out with the njoy, which was a piece of garbage. Crappy atomizer, horrible battery life, flaky charger, just junk.

    Bought some generic 401 hardware from (three atomizers, 4 batteries, and a handful or carts) and I've been pretty pleased with it. Vapor production is nice and full, though the cartridges require pretty frequent refelling and I typically go through two full battery charges a day. In particular, topping up the tiny little cartridges is a pain if I'm driving long-distance. On the downside, I've managed to misplace two battery/atomizer combos over the past six months. But hey, that's why we buy extras.

    Looking for something with a bit more staying power, I just ordered some Titan hardware from Totally Wicked. A handful of their extra-long manual batteries, some atomizers, and most importantly, a USB passthrough. I'm thinking that's the part that's going to make all the difference. Probably keep one of those plugged into my PC and carry another in the pocket when I'm up and about. I may even install a dedicated USB power port in the car.

    As to the juice, holy hell, there are just too many out there to test 'em all. I've been buying a lot of Totally Wicked, though I also have had a couple small bottles from Johnson Creek. One of 'em was just absolutely awesome, I think it was the Tennessee cured. It's a little too sweet all by itself, but mix it 50/50 with a generic tobacco flavor and it's just heaven.

    I still buy a pack of Marlboros every now and then (for a day at the Autocross, for instance) but for everyday use, these suckers are just great.

  6. #6
    FLAC muldrick's Avatar
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    Hmm, actually I started with the SE kit (same thing). Sure, was not the best, gave it to my mother in law. But, the 4081 atties are the best, I think.
    I build some mods using 6 volts and 901's, the 4081's hold up to 6 volts much better. I even had a switch get stuck on (on a prototype mod), fried the batteries, but I'm still using the same atty today.
    You mentioned juice, I was going to say to try TN Cured juice...you already did.
    Yes, real nice juice, good throat hit.
    I still smoke 3-4 Marls everyday...not sure why, I don't really enjoy them anymore.
    Nice to meet a fellow vapor
    Oh, I have some mods here

    As for the naysayers, that's fine, I understand completely. However, really shouldn't knock something unless you've tried it.
    If I hadn't, my response would've most likely been like yours. But really, glad I've reduced my 20 per day cigs to 4.

  7. #7
    Fusion Brain Creator 2k1Toaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muldrick View Post
    As for the naysayers, that's fine, I understand completely. However, really shouldn't knock something unless you've tried it.
    If I hadn't, my response would've most likely been like yours. But really, glad I've reduced my 20 per day cigs to 4.
    Good that you are down to 4 from 20, but really you should be at 0. These ecigs are harmful to your health, but the flipside is that they are less harmful than real cigs. So to use as a tool to quit, I suppose the lesser of two evils is ok.

    But you dont need to try something before you knock it. Scientific studies prove it without me needing to pollute my lungs. Never tried cigarettes either, but I knock them without any doubt...

    Hopefully this time next month you will be done completely. No more cigarettes, no more ejunk, just clean air.
    Fusion Brain Version 6 Released!
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  8. #8
    Constant Bitrate sergatiuk's Avatar
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    FDA - fake drug assumptions
    the only reason the FDA has a problem with this product is because they cant tax it like they do with tabaco... since its not tabaco...
    so they look for everything they can find to ban it...

    however i also wouldnt trust a product that contains "liquid nicotine" and is manufactures in some factory in china ... this product has very minimal research done about. and we smokers dont yet know the effect of this liquid nicotine, and the atomization of this liquid..nicotine by itself is not harmful... however its always the proccess of delivering it to the system that is harmful ... and i wouldnt surprised if this product is harmful no less then regular cigarettes...
    at the bottom line ... its all mental ..
    if u think its harfull and u use it.. it will be...

  9. #9
    FLAC muldrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sergatiuk View Post
    FDA - fake drug assumptions
    the only reason the FDA has a problem with this product is because they cant tax it like they do with tabaco... since its not tabaco...
    so they look for everything they can find to ban it...
    Well yes, the FDA is crap, if they are REALLY looking out for our health, REAL cigs would be banned, and Chantix, and MANY other products. I'm sure I could find bad stuff in brocolli if I tried hard enough.
    I'm not sure what their problem is. I mean, I WANT more testing done, but having the FDA make the calls is a waste of time. One thing I am sure of is that our health is NOT in their best interest. One excuse is that e-cig will "lead" kids to smoking because of flavours. (That's right, adults don't like flavours).
    I mean come on, it's a whole lot easier for a kid to find, get, and smoke a real cig than purchase one of these kits. (at $60-$70 + USD)
    THIS Study calls them a safe alternative.



    Quote Originally Posted by sergatiuk View Post
    however i also wouldnt trust a product that contains "liquid nicotine" and is manufactured in some factory in china ... ...
    I can certainly agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sergatiuk View Post
    this product has very minimal research done about. and we smokers dont yet know the effect of this liquid nicotine, and the atomization of this liquid..nicotine by itself is not harmful... however its always the proccess of delivering it to the system that is harmful ... and i wouldnt surprised if this product is harmful no less then regular cigarettes...
    at the bottom line ... its all mental ..
    if u think its harfull and u use it.. it will be...
    I seriously doubt it is "no less harmfull". I mean the ingredients are generally harmless but I can agree in "the way it is delivered" could be problamatic.
    More testing needs done.
    For you non smokers: I'm VERY excited I'm down to 4 cigs a day. I've tried the patch, gum, chantix, and some other crap. NONE worked. I reduced smoking real cigs the same day I started e-cigs.

  10. #10
    North of the land of Hey Huns
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    Quote Originally Posted by muldrick View Post
    For you non smokers: I'm VERY excited I'm down to 4 cigs a day. I've tried the patch, gum, chantix, and some other crap. NONE worked. I reduced smoking real cigs the same day I started e-cigs.
    But has your actual nicotine consumption gone up or down since you started on the ecigs? That's the question isn't it?
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