What kind of car did I see today?!?

**Scouse Monkey** · 09-04-2005, 09:55 AM

It is more likely that the money robbing red-tape of getting a car into the US is the reason that TVR has not made it into America. + you guys can't drive manual and TVR would rather cut off their right bollock that build an Auto version!

The lotus has not been in the US for similar reasons and one big reason was american would look at its puny 120hp and not want to touch it. One of the reasons for the new Toyota engine was the American market. There are plenty of Elises in America that have been imported. A lot got engine upgrades to Honda 2 litre units which has never really been a problem over here as we are fine with the power (but then we do weigh less

)

How about a Mitsubishi Evo 8? is that low tech?

Well over here we get the 400bhp version which you don't get for various reasons - emissions is probabyl one, the power is proabably another - and that wieghs fractionally more than the TVR but then it is based on a road car chassis and was not designed from the ground up to be how it is.

As for crash protection.....your average family hatch has crumple zones to protect the occupants from you typical crash. A family car in a high speed crash gets drestroyed and the occupants inside normally come into contact with what the car did which results in heads getting popped and brains splattered into a million pieces of goo. YOu would expect the TVR to be in high speed crashes - especially as it is likely to be used in track days so lower speed crash protection has to be compromised. The car is small and nimble so crumple zones are jsut not practical. And as for pedestrian safety well the TVR is the safest car around as pedestrians will hear it coming from a long, long way away and get out the way!

**Chris31** · 09-04-2005, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by rushnrockt

I said it's relatively low-tech, they had a high-compression, large displacement approach with no emission-control of any kind, a major power robber.

In a race car how would you go about designing a powerful engine without the above approach? Saying that, alot of car over there uses the big liter when a much smaller engine could have been used.

Originally Posted by rushnrockt

It does mean that the engine is easier to make that much more powerful, as state above.

Its supposed to be a fast car, its main objective is to win the race and not to pass emmission test.

Originally Posted by rushnrockt

My conclusion is that Speed 12 is unlikely to be a street legal car in United States.

Who cares? its meant to be on the track, you ever been on a race track? you think an average driver in US can drive an 800BHP manual, race bred car? Theres already a street legal cerbera. If they want to make speed 12 on the street of US they can always detune/modify the engine. TVR is probably aint interested in doing this.

Originally Posted by rushnrockt

If I remember correctly, car bumpers of cars like Speed 12 are not "soft enough" when hitting pedestrians by American standards..

Wonder if the hammer passes the pedestrian friendly bumber test.

Originally Posted by rushnrockt

It has only 4 valves less than Viper even though it has 6 cylinder less and has variable valve timing, 66.7hp/liter and Viper has... umm... 505 cubes of displacement

Why are we comparing echo with viper now? the original was you on about a TVR having a low tech engine. Maybe you like your engine economical, the orginal discussion here was about seeing a rare fast car in US.

Sorry but Ill rather take the low tech engine viper or tvr and enjoy it around the race track. You can do your shopping in your echo.

Now lets talk about DBR9 on a track, mind comparing its handling with the micras so we got something to talk about.

**Chris31** · 09-04-2005, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Scouse Monkey

How about a Mitsubishi Evo 8? is that low tech?

Yes very low tech, ford pinto engine is better.

**Scouse Monkey** · 09-04-2005, 11:45 AM

The TVR speed 8 engine was a detuned race engine. A race engine that was very advanced and built by engineers at TVR. Jsut because a sompany is small it doesnt mean they make low tech stuff. Ford and Chevy are big but they make crappy nascar engines. Cosworth, Ilmor etc make race engines that use the best materials etc etc. Building an advanced engine these days is a collaboration between the designers and various companies such as exhaust specialists, materials specialists, electronics specialists etc etc down to the people who make the belts for the timing etc.

The current cars use the speed 6 engine which is based on the speed 8.

The designers at TVR are not just your average joe and fred they will have previously worked for larger companies the big problem with TVR engines has been reliability - that is where big companies with big budgets come in. They had the money for testing - clever high tech design does not have to cost much, it is the testing that costs. Now TVR is russian owned they have the money to develp the reliability.

How long ago was it that US cars were still being built with solid rear axles? Infact, is the mustang now sold with independant rear suspenion coz it wasnt a few years ago and it handles like ****. Not only that but it had a very low tech engine.

TVR used to compete in sports car racing - you dont get away with low tech in sprots car racing. There you find porsche, McLaren, Ferarri etc etc

In comparisson to the BMW engine in the McLaren F1 they may be low tech and they may not have the auto wipers or traction control of modern family cars but that is becasue that is how they are meant to be. A powerful engine in a lightweight car with buckets of mechanical grip and **** loads of style.

**rushnrockt** · 09-04-2005, 12:24 PM

Yes, it is possible to make the car pass emissions by detuning, that's where relative low-tech nature shows, its amazing horsepower numbers are in large part due to the fact that it is unrestricted. Lambo achieves almost similar horsepower/liter numbers and passes emissions and that engine is unquestionably way more high-tech.

Originally Posted by Chris31

the orginal discussion here was about seeing a rare fast car in US.

That's exactly what I was talking about. If you want to see a rare car on the streets in US, it has to pass the emissions standards and the safety standards, getting any kind of waiver is a complete pain in *** and just about impossible. A car like Speed 12 can be imported for "race purposes" but that means that the owner will get a ticket if he drives it on the street (and gets caught of course).

Originally Posted by Chris31

If they want to make speed 12 on the street of US they can always detune/modify the engine. TVR is probably aint interested in doing this.

Yes, like I already said, they are unlikely to want to detune the engine AND have to crash test half a dozen of these beauties just to satisfy Uncle Sam

And yes, amazingly enough Hummer passes the tests that Cerbera would probably fail. It is also one of the reasons that a Hummer does not even have to qualify as a regular passenger vehicle with its extra weight on top of an already heavy car.

Originally Posted by Chris31

Why are we comparing echo with viper now?

You were talking about high/low tech engines, so I gave an example, that particular part of discussion was about the engine and its technology, not the overall sportiness of the car.

Please don't try to make this discussion something that it is not (micras and what not). I would like to see (or own) this car just as much as anyone else here. I just gave a reason why it is unlikely it will appear in US in that particular form. Yes, the crash tests are dumb and yes emission tests are dumb and about to get dumber in 2006, that's not something that I control, Uncle Sam is the one responsible, talk to him.

**Scouse Monkey** · 09-04-2005, 01:13 PM

WTF

I am pretty sure you will find a TVR passes your emission laws as mush as any lambo.

You also forget that Euro crash tests lead the world and Euro designed cars are miles ahead of American and Japanese designs. The Euro ncap requires a head on crash using only 40% of the front (drivers side) of the car to simulate a real life accident. The American test is a full frontal.

There are many reasons that the TVR is detuned for road use.....drivability (any race engine is useless on public roads as you have to keep the revs up), noise (sports exhausts are too loud), fuel consumption, reliability as no race engine (no matter how advanced) can put up with the daily grind around town and temperature - any race engine will overheat if it sits in a traffic jam and race cars run at higher temps (you dont want your road car exhaust glowing white hot do you). If you tune any engine to high performance emissions go up.

In the UK we are taxed on the exhaust emissions of our cars.

A 4 litre TVR Tuscan with 400 hp emits 405g/km of CO2

A 5 litre Gallardo with just under 500hp emits 450g/km of CO2

A Ferrari 360 with 400hp emits 440g/km of CO2

A 6 litre murchelargo emits over 500g/km of CO2

I would say in terms of power per litre and emissions the TVR is pretty spot on, if not slightly better than a lot of bigger sports car companies.

Admittedly, mass production engines such as Lexus 4 litre, BMW etc etc have lower CO2 emissions around 300g/km but they have had a lot more technology thrown at the emissions reduction due to legislation and tax costs to owners. This expenditure is not deamed necarssary for sports cars and would only result in power sapping quiet exhuast systems

**rushnrockt** · 09-04-2005, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Scouse Monkey

It is more likely that the money robbing red-tape of getting a car into the US is the reason that TVR has not made it into America. + you guys can't drive manual and TVR would rather cut off their right bollock that build an Auto version!

The lotus has not been in the US for similar reasons and one big reason was american would look at its puny 120hp and not want to touch it. One of the reasons for the new Toyota engine was the American market. There are plenty of Elises in America that have been imported. A lot got engine upgrades to Honda 2 litre units which has never really been a problem over here as we are fine with the power (but then we do weigh less

)

How about a Mitsubishi Evo 8? is that low tech?

Well over here we get the 400bhp version which you don't get for various reasons - emissions is probabyl one, the power is proabably another - and that wieghs fractionally more than the TVR but then it is based on a road car chassis and was not designed from the ground up to be how it is.

As for crash protection.....your average family hatch has crumple zones to protect the occupants from you typical crash. A family car in a high speed crash gets drestroyed and the occupants inside normally come into contact with what the car did which results in heads getting popped and brains splattered into a million pieces of goo. YOu would expect the TVR to be in high speed crashes - especially as it is likely to be used in track days so lower speed crash protection has to be compromised. The car is small and nimble so crumple zones are jsut not practical. And as for pedestrian safety well the TVR is the safest car around as pedestrians will hear it coming from a long, long way away and get out the way!

Agreed.
The Elise didn't make it here because of the emissions of the Rover engine and safety. When it comes to safety I am still not sure what is the deciding factor, it is well known that there are more road casualties in US (no matter which way you count) than in just about all of the rest of the western world. So even though it is a pain in a butt red tape for companies outside of United States, it obviously isn't helping too much. Except may be insurance companies.
You might be surprised to find out that even with the 120hp engine, there were many US buyers bugging Lotus for years and the new one disappeared from the lots before even getting there. Forbidden fruit and all

**Scouse Monkey** · 09-04-2005, 04:43 PM

the rover K series in the Elise is actually a very, very good engine. just not very reliable. The K series have special cooling channels and the variable timing is similar to what you get on Toyota and Honda engines - and not copied before anyone asks.

they were used becasue of ther power to weight ratio - unfortunately the light weight was also the downfall of the engine as it wasnt too strong.

the Early TVRs where based on crude Ford based engines that were given race car treatment and addons.

Then they went to a Rover/TVR engine for a few years which was a very good engine and really put TVR on the map.

Then they developed their own engines and hence the speed 12, 8 and 6 series.

the only way small car companies can get into markets like America is to use turnkey engines from manufacturers such as BMW, Mercedes etc etc.

**rushnrockt** · 09-04-2005, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Scouse Monkey

the only way small car companies can get into markets like America is to use turnkey engines from manufacturers such as BMW, Mercedes etc etc.

Yeah, bribing hasn't worked so well lately.

**rushnrockt** · 09-04-2005, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Scouse Monkey

I am pretty sure you will find a TVR passes your emission laws as mush as any lambo.

American emission laws are quite a bit different than Europe's and the downfall of many imports is not CO2 but NOx and particle emissions. This is the reason next year importing diesel engines will become even more difficult than before, even for big companies such as Mercedes and BMW. Seriously, please don't take it so damn personally, I didn't come up with any of these regulations, anytime something new comes out in Europe, American car magazines always ask "when is it coming here?" and the answer is just about always "never, because of the emissions and safety standards."

Originally Posted by Scouse Monkey

You also forget that Euro crash tests lead the world and Euro designed cars are miles ahead of American and Japanese designs. The Euro ncap requires a head on crash using only 40% of the front (drivers side) of the car to simulate a real life accident. The American test is a full frontal.

If you read what I said, I never doubted the advancement of Euro crash tests, but here in the States they have a stupid 5-mph barrier test, which a car needs to pass without any body damage. Elise was remodeled to incorporate that bumper, which along with new engine made it possible to improt the car. If you look at most TVRs, they looks alone do not allow for a built-in bumper of this kind, it would just become ugly, so obviously TVR would not want to do that, and they are right.

You and Chris are taking this like I was saying that TVR sucks and all American is awesome. I never said that and you'll give birth before I ever say that. Since TVR is Russian owned, I have just as much pride in it as you people do

And "low-tech" does not mean "low-performance" look at Panoz cars which are in fact in racing and are unquestionably "low-tech" compared to some other engines out there. Perfection of so-called low-tech however is what makes the cars as powerful as newer designs and yes, since they do not have variable-everything and such, it does mean that emissions control will suffer.

NOW TO SUMMARIZE again so that you don't misunderstand me: TVR rocks, I want it. I still stand by the statement that Speed 12 engine is relatively low-tech, but obviously it's been perfected from a performance point of view. You might not agree with me on this one, but that's my opinion and it is not meant to insult anyone. The reason it is next to impossible to get one in US is because of the numerous regulations such as emissions/safety that are different from Europe's (not necessarily for best) and that TVR is unwilling to deal with due to costs and stupidity of some of them (like the bumper thing). The new owner says he will introduce TVR in US, so I hope this will all change.