Thread: So...America IS hated?

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

Let me start first by asking how old you are? I ask because it is quite obvious from your excited statements that you can't have an inteligent conversation with out attempting to somehow demean the other individual. I have not resorted to name calling, degrading statements, and plain childish behaviour.

I'm 28.
Do you feel you were personally attacked? Hmmm...it just looks like your ideal UScentric world was just hurt and you're firing at any direction.
Nobody attacked you but if you really REALLY think that something I said was more insulting, arrogant and selfish than your statements then I trully apologise.

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

Well, here is the link where I read your Constitution.

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/gr00000_.html

Silly me, perhaps I used a different version of your Constitution. Is there more then one? It seems there is. How the hell am I supposed to figure out that you guys change your constitution almost yearly.

Article 7 [Nullum Crimen Sine Lege]
(3) General confiscation is prohibited. The death penalty shall not be imposed for political crimes save for compound ones.

Yes, the death penalty in America is routine, but only for the most serious of offenses. Murder in particular, save for some Serious crimes in limited situations in very few states. The one that sticks in my mind is the Rape of Children can be punished with death. My point was that a "Political" crime is not punishable by death in this country. I made no reference to other crimes. It shows our Political Freedom.

Allright now what you're reading was the constitution from 1975. That's the first one after the 1967-1974 dictatorship. Let's see what the current constitution says (taken from the official link I gave you above from the Greek parliament):

Article 7
1. There shall be no crime, nor shall punishment
be inflicted unless specified by law in
force prior to the perpetration of the act, defining
the constitutive elements of the act. In no
case shall punishment more severe than that
specified at the time of the perpetration of the
act be inflicted.
2. Torture, any bodily maltreatment, impairment
of health or the use of psychological violence,
as well as any other offence against human
dignity are prohibited and punished as provided
by law.
** 3. The general confiscation of property is
prohibited. The death penalty shall not be
imposed, except in the cases provided by law
for felonies perpetrated in time of war and
related thereto.
4. The conditions under which the State, following
a judicial decision, shall indemnify persons
unjustly or illegally convicted, detained
pending trial, or otherwise deprived of their
personal liberty shall be provided by law.


As I told you before the only mention was for criminals of war.
The constitution is revised every 4 years to stay current.
Now my dear friend when you decide to enter a debate you are OBLIGED to do your reasearch, read, compare and do everything else neccessary to express valid opinions. I don't care if that will take you a lot of you bedtime with "freedom" but it must be done or else you're posting crap and litter the forum with junk.
I expect an apology.

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

No, that is not what I said. But if you are walking down the street minding your own business, they can't search you. That is guaranteed by the 4th Amendment. Also, an officer can't stop you and search you for mere suspician. He must have reasonable suspician to initially stopyou, but he can not search with out Probable Cause, which is significantly more then mere suspicion. In any event, the Greek Constitution grants nothing close to any protection against being stopped and searched. Is the 4th Amendment absolute. Nope. Will it protect you against ALL searches. Nope. But it does protect against some searches, and that is more then the Greek Constitution.

Funny how you didn't mention any of the other rights I mentioned. You know, Bail, Jury, Self incrimination, Representation by an attorney. Shall we assume that Greece has no such rights, and us Americans have more rights, and thefore protection and freedom.

Ok now let's see...
I assume you're aware that the constitution (at least here) is a set of foundamental principles that govern the Nations political/social life.
Of cource there are seperate laws which take care individual problems with more precision.
Tell me really can a Nation's laws extend to only 154 pages?
So yes there are laws that prohibit search on the streets and other stuff like that.
Again peacefully I ask you to read articles 5 and 6.
When you're done come again to play

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

You could, if you spelled it correctly. And, article 6 of what? Your Constitution protects Greek citizens, our Constitution protects American citizens. Wether Guantanimo bay is a violation of International law is a debate we can get into sometime, but was not the focus of my statements. I was merely comparing our respective constitutional rights and freedoms. Guantanimo does not restrict my personal freedoms in any way, shape, or form.

Hehe...well yes I can't spell correctly. I apologise.
Try to write a sentence in Greek and let's see how many errors you'll make
Oh oh isn't that a personal attack now?.....Nahhhh.....only Seth makes such remarks.
Regarding Guantanimo or Guandanamo or whetever it is called you're right it's a topic of an entirelly different conversation. Regardless let's pretend it does not affect you in any way. Does Echelon or Carnivore affect your precious "freedoms"?

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

I never made any assumption, and tried to convince you of anything other then that Americans have more freedom. I never stated it was better, or worse, or the way to have a "peacefull" (I never once mentioned peacfull ANYWHERE. Now who is making up things) to have arms. I simply pointed out that the right to bear arms is a freedom that Greece does not have and Americans do. And since you are so concerned with the merauding Turks, perhaps the freedom to bear arms would make you feel better.

More arms to battle arms....I prefer to build theaters and watch ancient drama instead. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

More or less? You mean, I am right. You must serve in the military. I never said it was good or bad, just pointing out that you lack the freedom to decide wether to join the military or not.

Yes I said more or less because you wrote half of the truth:

** Interpretative clause:
The provision of paragraph 6 does not preclude
that the law provides for the mandatory
performance of other services, within or outside
the armed forces (alternative service), by those
having a substantiated conscientious objection to
performing armed service or, generally, military
duties.

You see you can avoid serving in the military if you like.

Again research more mate....

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

I apologize. I failed to realize, thinking that Constitutions are like the US constitution and never really change, that the Greek Constitution has been changed time and time again. It seems as if the Greek Constitution has been changed and modified many times over. I wonder when it will be changed in such a way as to remove all your freedoms, cause the only true protection the Greek Constitution guarantees is that the form of government of Greece can't/won't change.(http://www.parliament.gr/english/politeuma/default.asp) At least in the US the chance of the Constitution changing like that is much slimmer.



Wow, you sound like the Father from my Big Fat Greek Wedding. I know, the Greeks invented everything. That is fine. I am not debating that, cause I think it is irrelevent. But the US Constitution is the oldest Constitution still in existance. Does that mean it is better. No. I was just pointing it out.

Sparta. Early 7th Century, BC (http://www.elysiumgates.com/~helena/Revolution.html) Will you know STFU?

I fail to see why you keep repeating that the constitution has changed many times. Yes it did because of political circumstances and to stay current. So what? What is your point exactly?

I see you'd REALLY like me to stfu (wonder why?)...ok I'll do it.

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

Please point out were I made a statement that "THE US IS THE ONLY FREE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD" I never said such a thing and never would. Your delusional statement indicates that you are not reading what I have written, but instead would like to interperate my words in a manner which upsets you. I have said no such thing, and implied no such thing. I did say that we are the MOST free. Not the ONLY free.



Then why don't people in foregin Countries buy large vehicles, with bug honking engines, and eat fast food like us americans. I know it isn't freedom. Is it money. Is it gas. What is it. You gotta asmit, per capita, there are a lot more Hummers and Expeditions etc in the US then there are in any other Foreign Country.

Originally Posted by Wiredwrx

The rest of the world in general don't like us because, as Americans, we have freedom. Freedom to do what we want, when we want. As long as we are willing to pay, we drive big trucks, and eat fattening food, and help the world monetarily, and with military aide. Few, if any, other countries can say that. It's no different then the envy many people feel towards the super rich, who can do what they want, when they want, have whatever they want, while others can not.

So you're telling me this was a "neutral" statement and/or not provoking?
Anyway mate it is always a pleasure to meet new people. It is also a pleasure to listen to ideas and opinions and evaluate them. I suggest the same to you.

Cheers and good luck paying up your loans to buy more "freedom"...