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Thread: So...America IS hated?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdashiki
    Is America free-er than anywhere else?

    Personal freedom is what you make of it. *****ing back and forth about constitutions that are merely just pieces of paper, doesnt make what is written on them any more real than what you buy when you purchase "insurance".

    What I mean is that the Constitution of a country isnt the final word on law or rights or freedoms. Its the people in the country who make that. Blacks were "free" for a century but werent "free" like white people until the 1960s...
    See below. They were free, they just didn't have opportunity.

    Roe v Wade makes abortion legal in the country, but abortion isnt in the Constitution, just a simple foundation for the future people of the country to base their own laws and freedoms on.
    While the word abortion doesn't apear in the constitution, the 5th amendment guarantees the right of Life, Liberty and property. Abortion has been allowed based on the Life and Liberty, which the courts have interperated to mean the right to control ones own body.

    You can live in the richest most prosperous country in the world, and it could still be populated by bigot racists. There goes your freedom, if your not white.
    Biggot racists do not take away your freedom. They just take away your opportunity. You are still free to do what you want, you just may not have the opportunity to do it.

    "You gotta look at me and you gotta say, hey buddy, why are you so mad and I'll tell ya, cuz for all the following that went over to the English bands from the SLC. Those ****in English chaps can only say **** about us Americans, all we were to them was a bunch of hicks. Well you know what, I'm not a ****in' hick. I don't wear cowboy boots, I hate the ****in rodeo, horses smell like **** to me, and I never **** anyone in my own bloodline. By definition I am not a redneck and goddammit I ain't no ****in' hick.
    ...I love the French language...especially to curse with...Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperies de connards d'enculés de ta mère. You see, it's like wiping your *** with silk, I love it.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth
    I'm 28.
    Do you feel you were personally attacked? Hmmm...it just looks like your ideal UScentric world was just hurt and you're firing at any direction.
    Nobody attacked you but if you really REALLY think that something I said was more insulting, arrogant and selfish than your statements then I trully apologise.
    Apology accepted. I apologize for the uncalled for and utterly disrespectfull comment on your spelling.

    Allright now what you're reading was the constitution from 1975. That's the first one after the 1967-1974 dictatorship. Let's see what the current constitution says (taken from the official link I gave you above from the Greek parliament):

    Article 7
    1. There shall be no crime, nor shall punishment
    be inflicted unless specified by law in
    force prior to the perpetration of the act, defining
    the constitutive elements of the act. In no
    case shall punishment more severe than that
    specified at the time of the perpetration of the
    act be inflicted.
    2. Torture, any bodily maltreatment, impairment
    of health or the use of psychological violence,
    as well as any other offence against human
    dignity are prohibited and punished as provided
    by law.
    ** 3. The general confiscation of property is
    prohibited. The death penalty shall not be
    imposed, except in the cases provided by law
    for felonies perpetrated in time of war and
    related thereto.
    4. The conditions under which the State, following
    a judicial decision, shall indemnify persons
    unjustly or illegally convicted, detained
    pending trial, or otherwise deprived of their
    personal liberty shall be provided by law.


    As I told you before the only mention was for criminals of war.
    The constitution is revised every 4 years to stay current.
    So, there was a disctatorship in Greece between 1967 and 1974. So, how free was your country then. I guess the previous Constitution wasn't very effective, and during that time, your country lacked many civil liberties and freedom. Also why did it take some 27 years for the revised Constitution to be ratified.(http://www.cecl.gr/RigasNetwork/data...atrougalos.htm) And, you have only recently (in 2001) been given many of the rights and freedoms that you now enjoy. But, it has only been 4 years. Certainly that is no legacy of freedom and rights to be extremely proud of.

    Also, perhaps now you have many of the freedoms that us Americans enjoy, but I will ask yet again, what about the right to be free from searches, the right to a jury trial, double jeapordy and bail, and the right to bare arms. Are they currently granted. If not, perhaps the discussion should end there, because then us Americans have more freedoms and rights. We can debate from today till tomorrow if it is better or worse. I am just making the point that in totality, we have more freedoms and rights. Please don't take that as a slight to your country. Accodring to the 2001 Constitution, for the past 4 years you have enjoyed many rights, just not as many as us. And, what took you guys soo long to get those.

    Now my dear friend when you decide to enter a debate you are OBLIGED to do your reasearch, read, compare and do everything else neccessary to express valid opinions. I don't care if that will take you a lot of you bedtime with "freedom" but it must be done or else you're posting crap and litter the forum with junk.
    I expect an apology.
    I will apologize for misunderstanding that Greece has had several versions of a constitution. I believe I mentioned it before, but perhaps I should repeat it. I never thought a country would have different versions. America has had but one since 1776. Certainly there has never been an overhaul that comes close to the overhaul of the Greek constitution of 1974.

    While my comparison of the US and the Greek Constitutions may have been flawed, several of my original statements (as expressed above) are still proper with the 2001 Constitution.

    Ok now let's see...
    I assume you're aware that the constitution (at least here) is a set of foundamental principles that govern the Nations political/social life.
    Of cource there are seperate laws which take care individual problems with more precision.
    Of course I understand that. But as Greece, like most EU Countries, does not follow the concept of Stare Decisis, it is near impossible to determine how courts will define any term or enforce and/or interperate these fundamental principles. The US also has fundamental principles in the Constitution, Life and Liberty among them. But, the US constitution also includes specified rights and freedoms. These can never be changed. While they may be open to interperation in the sense that "What is a search" must be interperated. But no one is trying to interperate an amorphous and non specific term like "Respect and protection of the value of the human being" (Yes, it is an english translation, but I tend to think that the Greek words are just as amorphous and un-specific as the English translation). What is the "value of a human being" How does one Respect and Protect a "value", especially that of a human being. I have seen statements like this before in International documents, laws, conventions, and treaties. But, no one has yet to define it. How can something that can't be defined be protected.

    Additionally, I was unable, after a diligent and carefull search, to locate any on line documents referencing Greek criminal law. I am sure there are books and documents, but none on-line I can find. Since the constitution doesn't guarantee the several rights I mentioned, and the fact that Greek courts are not bound by Stare Decisis, any of the rights that have been granted (if there are any) can be taken away in a heart beat. IN the US, the courts are bound by Stare Decisis, and by the COnstitution. Since these rights are granted in the Constitution, they can not be removed or limited (only interprated) by the Supreme Court, and since the Supreme Court of the US has decided the extent of the protection of the Constitution, no court can impinge those rights. They are here to stay.

    Tell me really can a Nation's laws extend to only 154 pages?
    Absolutely not. I never thought it did, or would. BUT, it was all I had to compare since there are no online documents describing or listing Greek law.

    So yes there are laws that prohibit search on the streets and other stuff like that.
    Perhaps there are. But, they are not granted by the Constitution, which was the only statement I made. I never said that you didn't have those rights. In fact, I mentioned several specific rights that the US constitution grants, but are not granted in the Greek Constitution, but you have not discussed them at all. And as mentioned before, because of the lack of stare decisis, that could change at any time.

    Again peacefully I ask you to read articles 5 and 6.
    When you're done come again to play
    I have, so I guess I am ready to "play". What was your intent for me to read those articles?

    Hehe...well yes I can't spell correctly. I apologise.
    Try to write a sentence in Greek and let's see how many errors you'll make
    Oh oh isn't that a personal attack now?.....Nahhhh.....only Seth makes such remarks.
    Regarding Guantanimo or Guandanamo or whetever it is called you're right it's a topic of an entirelly different conversation. Regardless let's pretend it does not affect you in any way. Does Echelon or Carnivore affect your precious "freedoms"?
    Well, being that the US government has never confirmed the existance of Echelon or Carnivore, I could easily argue that they do not exists. They are figments of the imagination of conspiracy theorists the world over. (There are lots of conspiracy theories, called theories because the lack of proof. Such as the Accomplice theory of the JFK assassination. They have proven the possibility of the "Magic Bullet",(The History Channel recently had a TV show that showed a single person could have assassinated JFK, that the "magic bullet" truly wasn't magical, and that Oswald could have made it to the street where he shot the Police officer by foot, and with out the aid of an accomplice) Is it possible they exists, sure. Does the mere possibility present a possibility of their misuse, less so. Does the mere possibility of the existance, and the lesser possibility of the misuse cause me to fear for my civil liberties, NO. Even if they do exists, I have fealt no tangible loss of my civil liberties, and therefore, I do not believe that, if they exist, they do affect my freedoms.

    More arms to battle arms....I prefer to build theaters and watch ancient drama instead. Thank you.
    As I stated before, I never stated that the right to bear arms is a good or bad "right". I listed it purely as a right which Greeks to not have.
    ...I love the French language...especially to curse with...Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperies de connards d'enculés de ta mère. You see, it's like wiping your *** with silk, I love it.

  3. #43
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    Yes I said more or less because you wrote half of the truth:

    ** Interpretative clause:
    The provision of paragraph 6 does not preclude
    that the law provides for the mandatory
    performance of other services, within or outside
    the armed forces (alternative service), by those
    having a substantiated conscientious objection to
    performing armed service or, generally, military
    duties.

    You see you can avoid serving in the military if you like.

    Again research more mate....
    Actually, you can't avoid military service "if you like" According to what you quoted, it requires a "substantiated conscientious objection to performing armed service..." What is I just don't want to serve. What if I just recently married, and want to spend time with my wife, or if she just had a child, and I want to spend time with them. What if I just don't believe in the Greek country, yet I have no "substantiated conscientious objection to performing armed service.." Well, then I must serve, correct. Or, can anyone get out of it for any reason? That is certainly not what your quotation says. I don't believe any more research will change the fact that you can;t get out of military duty "if you like".

    I fail to see why you keep repeating that the constitution has changed many times. Yes it did because of political circumstances and to stay current. So what? What is your point exactly?
    Simply that since the Constitution changes, it can change again tomorrow, and remove all of the freedoms guaranteed by the previous version. You may think that will never happen, but I wonder how many people thought the same thing before the 1967 dictatorship. According to the research I have done, the only article that can't be changed is the one that makes Greece a Parliamentary government (http://www.parliament.gr/english/politeuma/default.asp)
    "On March 6, 1986, pursuant to article 110 of the Constitution, which stipulates that the provisions of the Constitution are subject to revision except for those which determine the form of government as a Parliamentary Republic as well as certain other provisions, eleven articles were amended and a vote was passed transposing the text of the Constitution into demotic Greek."

    I see you'd REALLY like me to stfu (wonder why?)...ok I'll do it.
    No, I had no desire for you to STFU. You offered twice, and took you up on the offer.

    I quite enjoy debating. But more importantly, I see "debate" as educating the otherside.

    Originally Posted by Wiredwrx
    The rest of the world in general don't like us because, as Americans, we have freedom. Freedom to do what we want, when we want. As long as we are willing to pay, we drive big trucks, and eat fattening food, and help the world monetarily, and with military aide. Few, if any, other countries can say that. It's no different then the envy many people feel towards the super rich, who can do what they want, when they want, have whatever they want, while others can not.

    So you're telling me this was a "neutral" statement and/or not provoking?
    I was stating why I believe people do not like America. Is that neutral, well, I don't see why not. I stated we have freedom, that is neutral. I stated that we eat fattening food, drive big trucks and are willing to pay for them. I think that is neutral. Perhaps you took that to mean that non americans do not, though how one would consider that biased I can't figure out. Then I stated that few, if any countries, can say that they do the same things, or have the same feelings. Certainly I don't see that as inflamatory. If you told me you were rich and I am poor, that won't make me mad, and I wouldn't find that statement biased. I would, however, explain to you how you were wrong. Why my statement angered/irked/bothered you so much is beyong my understanding.

    Anyway mate it is always a pleasure to meet new people. It is also a pleasure to listen to ideas and opinions and evaluate them. I suggest the same to you.
    I certainly have/will/do. Just because I disagree, doesn't make my opinion less valid, or yours less valid. As soon as you prove to me that your have more freedoms, or perhaps equal freedoms, to the US, then I will disagree. I have asked several times about the right to jury, bail, double jeapardy, and searches. Do you have them in Greece or not. If not, then please admit that the US has more freedom and rights then Greece.

    Cheers and good luck paying up your loans to buy more "freedom"...

    Not sure what that means. Is your freedom somehow "Free"

    Michael
    ...I love the French language...especially to curse with...Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperies de connards d'enculés de ta mère. You see, it's like wiping your *** with silk, I love it.

  4. #44
    Maximum Bitrate Seth's Avatar
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    Ok mate look...you're happy with your country, I'm happy with my country. You believe you're the most free man in the world, I doubt it. You may believe buying freedom reflects your freedom in general while I have a different theory of what a free man actually is.
    I'll step out as I find this pointless. My point was made and my voice was heard. That's all I ask. As ancient Greeks said in such debates the only winner is the process (Plato, Dialogs).

    Good luck with your life

    Cheers


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    This thread needs a hot chick.
    My Carputer! (More Car Pics at the end)
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    Check it out?!

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    lets fight for oil

  7. #47
    Nic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pudge


    This thread needs a hot chick.
    those tits look awful
    Signature: [==||========] 20% complete

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic
    those tits look awful
    I agree, they should be wrapped around my ears.
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    It will be done sometime in the next generation.
    I'm a lesbian too.
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    yuck
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