Apology accepted. I apologize for the uncalled for and utterly disrespectfull comment on your spelling.Originally Posted by Seth
So, there was a disctatorship in Greece between 1967 and 1974. So, how free was your country then. I guess the previous Constitution wasn't very effective, and during that time, your country lacked many civil liberties and freedom. Also why did it take some 27 years for the revised Constitution to be ratified.(http://www.cecl.gr/RigasNetwork/data...atrougalos.htm) And, you have only recently (in 2001) been given many of the rights and freedoms that you now enjoy. But, it has only been 4 years. Certainly that is no legacy of freedom and rights to be extremely proud of.Allright now what you're reading was the constitution from 1975. That's the first one after the 1967-1974 dictatorship. Let's see what the current constitution says (taken from the official link I gave you above from the Greek parliament):
1. There shall be no crime, nor shall punishment
be inflicted unless specified by law in
force prior to the perpetration of the act, defining
the constitutive elements of the act. In no
case shall punishment more severe than that
specified at the time of the perpetration of the
act be inflicted.
2. Torture, any bodily maltreatment, impairment
of health or the use of psychological violence,
as well as any other offence against human
dignity are prohibited and punished as provided
** 3. The general confiscation of property is
prohibited. The death penalty shall not be
imposed, except in the cases provided by law
for felonies perpetrated in time of war and
4. The conditions under which the State, following
a judicial decision, shall indemnify persons
unjustly or illegally convicted, detained
pending trial, or otherwise deprived of their
personal liberty shall be provided by law.
As I told you before the only mention was for criminals of war.
The constitution is revised every 4 years to stay current.
Also, perhaps now you have many of the freedoms that us Americans enjoy, but I will ask yet again, what about the right to be free from searches, the right to a jury trial, double jeapordy and bail, and the right to bare arms. Are they currently granted. If not, perhaps the discussion should end there, because then us Americans have more freedoms and rights. We can debate from today till tomorrow if it is better or worse. I am just making the point that in totality, we have more freedoms and rights. Please don't take that as a slight to your country. Accodring to the 2001 Constitution, for the past 4 years you have enjoyed many rights, just not as many as us. And, what took you guys soo long to get those.
I will apologize for misunderstanding that Greece has had several versions of a constitution. I believe I mentioned it before, but perhaps I should repeat it. I never thought a country would have different versions. America has had but one since 1776. Certainly there has never been an overhaul that comes close to the overhaul of the Greek constitution of 1974.Now my dear friend when you decide to enter a debate you are OBLIGED to do your reasearch, read, compare and do everything else neccessary to express valid opinions. I don't care if that will take you a lot of you bedtime with "freedom" but it must be done or else you're posting crap and litter the forum with junk.
I expect an apology.
While my comparison of the US and the Greek Constitutions may have been flawed, several of my original statements (as expressed above) are still proper with the 2001 Constitution.
Of course I understand that. But as Greece, like most EU Countries, does not follow the concept of Stare Decisis, it is near impossible to determine how courts will define any term or enforce and/or interperate these fundamental principles. The US also has fundamental principles in the Constitution, Life and Liberty among them. But, the US constitution also includes specified rights and freedoms. These can never be changed. While they may be open to interperation in the sense that "What is a search" must be interperated. But no one is trying to interperate an amorphous and non specific term like "Respect and protection of the value of the human being" (Yes, it is an english translation, but I tend to think that the Greek words are just as amorphous and un-specific as the English translation). What is the "value of a human being" How does one Respect and Protect a "value", especially that of a human being. I have seen statements like this before in International documents, laws, conventions, and treaties. But, no one has yet to define it. How can something that can't be defined be protected.Ok now let's see...
I assume you're aware that the constitution (at least here) is a set of foundamental principles that govern the Nations political/social life.
Of cource there are seperate laws which take care individual problems with more precision.
Additionally, I was unable, after a diligent and carefull search, to locate any on line documents referencing Greek criminal law. I am sure there are books and documents, but none on-line I can find. Since the constitution doesn't guarantee the several rights I mentioned, and the fact that Greek courts are not bound by Stare Decisis, any of the rights that have been granted (if there are any) can be taken away in a heart beat. IN the US, the courts are bound by Stare Decisis, and by the COnstitution. Since these rights are granted in the Constitution, they can not be removed or limited (only interprated) by the Supreme Court, and since the Supreme Court of the US has decided the extent of the protection of the Constitution, no court can impinge those rights. They are here to stay.
Absolutely not. I never thought it did, or would. BUT, it was all I had to compare since there are no online documents describing or listing Greek law.Tell me really can a Nation's laws extend to only 154 pages?
Perhaps there are. But, they are not granted by the Constitution, which was the only statement I made. I never said that you didn't have those rights. In fact, I mentioned several specific rights that the US constitution grants, but are not granted in the Greek Constitution, but you have not discussed them at all. And as mentioned before, because of the lack of stare decisis, that could change at any time.So yes there are laws that prohibit search on the streets and other stuff like that.
I have, so I guess I am ready to "play". What was your intent for me to read those articles?Again peacefully I ask you to read articles 5 and 6.
When you're done come again to play
Well, being that the US government has never confirmed the existance of Echelon or Carnivore, I could easily argue that they do not exists. They are figments of the imagination of conspiracy theorists the world over. (There are lots of conspiracy theories, called theories because the lack of proof. Such as the Accomplice theory of the JFK assassination. They have proven the possibility of the "Magic Bullet",(The History Channel recently had a TV show that showed a single person could have assassinated JFK, that the "magic bullet" truly wasn't magical, and that Oswald could have made it to the street where he shot the Police officer by foot, and with out the aid of an accomplice) Is it possible they exists, sure. Does the mere possibility present a possibility of their misuse, less so. Does the mere possibility of the existance, and the lesser possibility of the misuse cause me to fear for my civil liberties, NO. Even if they do exists, I have fealt no tangible loss of my civil liberties, and therefore, I do not believe that, if they exist, they do affect my freedoms.Hehe...well yes I can't spell correctly. I apologise.
Try to write a sentence in Greek and let's see how many errors you'll make
Oh oh isn't that a personal attack now?.....Nahhhh.....only Seth makes such remarks.
Regarding Guantanimo or Guandanamo or whetever it is called you're right it's a topic of an entirelly different conversation. Regardless let's pretend it does not affect you in any way. Does Echelon or Carnivore affect your precious "freedoms"?
As I stated before, I never stated that the right to bear arms is a good or bad "right". I listed it purely as a right which Greeks to not have.More arms to battle arms....I prefer to build theaters and watch ancient drama instead. Thank you.