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Thread: Win7 32bit or 64bit?

  1. #11
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    A 64bit OS is only good if the software (application) takes advantage of the 64bit bus.
    Aside from any factual weirdness about applications caring about the width of the bus itself... This is incorrect.

    The OS can access more memory and handle it faster, even if one app can't [PAE blows]. The OS and select apps can do more things at the same time, even if one app can't. Microsoft even claim it's more secure.

    64bit OS has been around for more than 5 years now, and winamp has yet to release a 64 bit version of their popular player. Why? For such a popular player, I don't know why.
    Because it runs just fine on 64-bit? Why do they need to build two binaries right now when one works fine? Sooner or later it'll stop working; as I said, half of windows 7 installs globally right now are 64-bit. Nullsoft are faced with the question; either get their stuff working, or take an immediate cut in potential customers by fifty percent.

    And you know what? If they don't support it, get another mp3 player. There are lots out there.

    Even though we see a lot of 64bit application coming out now, the 32bit version will always be available.
    No. How many people build 16-bit windows software nowadays? How many people release universal binaries for OSX, let alone PPC-specific ones?

    Admittedly there's a question of timing, but sooner or later people will be looking at 128 bit machines as rinkydink and the holdouts will be saying "Even though we see a lot of 256bit applications coming out right now, the 128bit version will always be available".

    But it's kind of a chicken/egg thing. Running everything on emulation is a disadvantage, but without high enough demand there won't be any pressure to make the switch.
    Exactly. You know how right now, everyone kvetches how IE6 is some kind of terrible thing that we all need to stop using, yet people are still using it?

    This 32-to-64 bit thing is the same; at some point, there'll still be people using it because software they use targets it, which only targets it because they use it.

    At this point, what everyone *should* do, but of course won't, is go 64-bit on their next install. Any applications that don't work, you submit bugs and stop using. Xport, for example; as already stated, gpsgate replaces it.


    In the end, Joel covered this better than I could: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html. I fall firmly on the idealist side, which I feel I can afford to because I'm a software developer and a long term Linux user, from back when Linux sucked; through copious amounts of personal experience, I can confidently state that
    1) Getting my code running on 64 bit has never been a problem. Developers who find it's a problem shouldn't be allowed near a compiler.
    2) I can get along fine without piece_of_software_X if the developer doesn't want me to use his stuff. There are always replacements

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  2. #12
    What can I say? I like serial. Curiosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunkyks View Post
    1) Getting my code running on 64 bit has never been a problem. Developers who find it's a problem shouldn't be allowed near a compiler.
    For most user level code it's just a matter of clicking on 64 bit target and work out any compiler errors, and as far as I know they don't even need to be running 64 bit. But a lot of us kernel level writers have quite a bit more work to do and more stuff to buy. It's a big load for the hobbyists. Even some of the larger companies are just finally getting drivers out, and they have $2000/yr MSDN subscriptions and development computers that they can crash, so some of us will take a little longer to catch up.

  3. #13
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    I'll give you that kernel development is a fair bit different, but anyone using anything in their car PC that requires kernelspace voodoo should seriously reconsider their choices.

    The companies that are only just getting drivers out are the ones that have by now been tangibly impacted by their lack of support. And I laugh.

    Sniglet for today: In order to get the "Windows 7 Certified" sticker for a pc, every item in it must be supported under 64 bit Win7 [I think my WHQL-certified, but I'm not sure]. So all those companies who are only just releasing 64-bit drivers are the ones whose hardware isn't currently being put in dells, gateways, etc. Thus I laugh at their shortsightedness that led to their loss of profits.

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  4. #14
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    did you guys forget where talking about carPCs not traditional computing?

    lets take a quick look at pros and cons:
    Pros:
    * more addressable memory space (>4GB or 3.5 if you want to talk real world)
    * slightly faster 64bit floating point math (video encoding, scientific calculations, encryption)
    * memory mapped file support >4GB

    Cons:
    * Larger application footprint
    * larger memory footprint
    * incompatibilities with 32bit applications, libraries and some drivers
    * requires context switching when running 32bit and 64bit code
    * larger code uses more CPU cache which can result in some calculations executing slower then 32bit

    now we boil that down to whats relevant in a carPC:
    pros:
    * None
    cons:
    * larger memory footprint
    * incompatibilities with 32bit applications, libraries and some drivers
    * requires context switching when running 32bit and 64bit code
    * larger code uses more CPU cache which can result in some calculations executing slower then 32bit

  5. #15
    What can I say? I like serial. Curiosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunkyks View Post
    I'll give you that kernel development is a fair bit different, but anyone using anything in their car PC that requires kernelspace voodoo should seriously reconsider their choices.
    LOL. XPort, GpsGate, and other drivers are voodoo? There are hundreds of hardware drivers, minidrivers, upper/lower/mid class, filter drivers, file system drivers, USB, WDM, bluetooth, port, miniport, video, audio, HID drivers running in kernel space on your car PC doing all kind of things you don't need to know about but are required and even your software relies them.

  6. #16
    Who am I? HiJackZX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justchat_1 View Post
    did you guys forget where talking about carPCs not traditional computing?

    lets take a quick look at pros and cons:
    Pros:
    * more addressable memory space (>4GB or 3.5 if you want to talk real world)
    * slightly faster 64bit floating point math (video encoding, scientific calculations, encryption)
    * memory mapped file support >4GB

    Cons:
    * Larger application footprint
    * larger memory footprint
    * incompatibilities with 32bit applications, libraries and some drivers
    * requires context switching when running 32bit and 64bit code
    * larger code uses more CPU cache which can result in some calculations executing slower then 32bit

    now we boil that down to whats relevant in a carPC:
    pros:
    * None
    cons:
    * larger memory footprint
    * incompatibilities with 32bit applications, libraries and some drivers
    * requires context switching when running 32bit and 64bit code
    * larger code uses more CPU cache which can result in some calculations executing slower then 32bit
    HAHAHAHHA, see I was getting pulled towards 64bit, and your post snapped me right back to 32bit. Even for what I want to do in my Car PC (which is short of taking over the world) I think 64bit will be super over kill, and give me headaches on a system that isnt even finished and already gives me headaches.
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  7. #17
    Variable Bitrate checksum's Avatar
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    Lol, I am lost with all these kernel talk. I think JustChat_1 summarized it pretty well
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  8. #18
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    A noob question (I have been ignorant of architecture for ages - especially with this temporary "digital" phase!)...

    Is a 64-bit in 32-bit (kernel) mode faster & more efficient etc than a 32-bit as 32-bit?

    [ If 64 as a 32 is less efficient due to emulation overheads (ignoring dataword splitting etc), but 64's are faster, then 64s may be faster than 32s. IE - only 64s will get faster after 32s cease development. ]

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSpark View Post
    Is a 64-bit in 32-bit (kernel) mode faster & more efficient etc than a 32-bit as 32-bit?

    [ If 64 as a 32 is less efficient due to emulation overheads (ignoring dataword splitting etc), but 64's are faster, then 64s may be faster than 32s. IE - only 64s will get faster after 32s cease development. ]
    Um what? Your question makes no sense.

    When you are running a 64-bit kernel, you are running a 64-bit kernel. Everything is 64-bit BUT the instruction set for 32-bit is still there. Thats the difference between the AMD64/Intel 64 and the Itanium platform which only supports 64-bit instructions.

    A 32-bit program has NO 64-bit instructions just like a 64-bit program has (if it has a good developer) NO 32-bit instructions.

    Im hearing alot of "emulation" talk in this thread which is (99%) nonexistent because the 32-bit instruction set exists in the processor at hardward level, not at software. I say 99% because like I stated above, ****ty developers are using emulated methods so their 64-bit program is not truely 64-bit (saves time which saves money) which thus slows down certain applications (games suffer this, it is getting alot better though)



    Now in the carputer world (and also in the consumer world) I would (note that this is a personal opinion of mine and some may or may not agree with it) personally recommened not installing a 64-bit OS. Reasons have be given above such as problems with driver/plugins, memory overhead, etc but the number one reason is development; Until Microsoft, the top OS developer, releases a 64-bit only OS, developers WILL NOT jump to making 64-bit applications. This is why me and others are hoping that the next Windows is 64-bit only compatible so developers have to jump ship because, like chunkyks said, alot of Windows users are (even if they dont know it) using a 64-bit version of Windows (Vista or 7) and this will also make users have to use 64-bit OSs

  10. #20
    What can I say? I like serial. Curiosity's Avatar
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    WoW64 emulates a 32 bit environment using the memory manager, not the full instruction set. Only the memory addressing instructions. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

    There's 64 bit memory addressing, 64 bit registers, 64 bit bus between CPU and memory. PICe-x4 is 64, but most of the glue chips still need some work, so there are still some 32 bit bottlenecks.

    So the main advantage is more memory. We already use 64 bit numbers on 32, just like 16 on 8-bit. Now it's little faster for the CPU to do it's thing internally on math rarely used by average software.

    Average binaries are double the size, so it takes double the memory and that means double the addressing of the binary per/second so to speak, but the bus is doubled so it's not a big deal. 64 bit means we probably need 50% more RAM is what it comes down to, at least for now. A few extra watts too.

    So accessing large amounts of data on WoW64 is noticably slower and a 64 bit binary is faster.

    32 is slower on 64 than it would be on 32.
    64 won't run on 32. No emulation.
    Neither 32 or 64 kernel space binaries will run on the wrong platform. Below emulation level.
    Running just one 32 bit app on 64 means context switching or possibly allocating a whole core of a multi-core CPU. But if it's not a CPU intensive app, nobody will notice it much.

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