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Thread: Inverter not booting pc after second try

  1. #11
    FLAC IntellaWorks's Avatar
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    .

    I've had this problem, here's the anwser:



    Your inverter probably isn't a sine wave inverter or if it is, its not really a good quality inverter. An inverter does this to power:


    Sine Wave, simply makes AC power look like DC power by rounding out DC edges. If you check out sine wave converters they will have a percentage on the box or specs. Typically thier 80-85% this means that each "wave" falls between 80-85% close to a real AC wave.

    Computer components need very good power, because what your power supply actually does is reverse what your DC/AC converter just did and turn the rounded edges into flat edges. The result of turning AC back to DC, With bad AC results in an unrecognizable power type to your power supply thus not turning your PC on.

    Your Power Converter tries to give your PC power a good supply of AC waves and it can do this when its cold, it can give your pc something to work with when it hasnt been used for a few hours... but while your driving your stressing the equiptment heating it up. When you stop and go at a gas station your inverter hasnt had enough time to re-coup itself resulting in bad AC waves to your pc powersupply. Typically a 10-15 minute wait will give your converter enough time to cool off.


    A remedy to this solution is here:

    Buy a TRUE SINE WAVE CONVERTER, these inverters are built specifically for computer components, thier output is 90-95% true to AC waves. You will never have a problem starting your pc after short stops..

    Hope this helps.
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  2. #12
    Maximum Bitrate falconey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntellaWorks
    I've had this problem, here's the anwser:



    Your inverter probably isn't a sine wave inverter or if it is, its not really a good quality inverter. An inverter does this to power:


    Sine Wave, simply makes AC power look like DC power by rounding out DC edges. If you check out sine wave converters they will have a percentage on the box or specs. Typically thier 80-85% this means that each "wave" falls between 80-85% close to a real AC wave.

    Computer components need very good power, because what your power supply actually does is reverse what your DC/AC converter just did and turn the rounded edges into flat edges. The result of turning AC back to DC, With bad AC results in an unrecognizable power type to your power supply thus not turning your PC on.

    Your Power Converter tries to give your PC power a good supply of AC waves and it can do this when its cold, it can give your pc something to work with when it hasnt been used for a few hours... but while your driving your stressing the equiptment heating it up. When you stop and go at a gas station your inverter hasnt had enough time to re-coup itself resulting in bad AC waves to your pc powersupply. Typically a 10-15 minute wait will give your converter enough time to cool off.


    A remedy to this solution is here:

    Buy a TRUE SINE WAVE CONVERTER, these inverters are built specifically for computer components, thier output is 90-95% true to AC waves. You will never have a problem starting your pc after short stops..

    Hope this helps.
    Sounds good, but I use a Vector P.O.S. from Wallyworld and I'm sure that's about as cheap as you can get. Dunno though, what you've presented is logical just doesn't seem to be accross the board.

  3. #13
    FLAC IntellaWorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconey
    Sounds good, but I use a Vector P.O.S. from Wallyworld and I'm sure that's about as cheap as you can get. Dunno though, what you've presented is logical just doesn't seem to be accross the board.

    Well, beleive me or not but its the solution to most of your power problems.
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    This is not really true when you look at the input stage of most PSUs as the AC is reftified and then capcitace smoothed and if you look at the damping ratio value of the capacitor in the input stage it will cause the ouput DC signal to be well within the limits of variance on the ouput side. As we are not intrested in the inputs to the atx supply but the output, especially on the grey "always on" wire that powers the chip on the motherboard that controls the startup.

    What you say about heat also doesnt hold as this will happen after 30 seconds of usage or 10 hours. I initially also though it was this also, but after testing it out I descovered that it was fine.

    You are completely correct that most equipment would like pure sine waves rather than modified however this only really applied to things that are driven off AC directly. For example if I used an AC motor on the modified sine wave it would not work at all correctly. The fact that most AC to DC converted are rectifier and capacitace smoothed means that you can use modifed sine wave inverters perfectly.

    I have also tested, using a multimeter, the frequency and peak to peak (also RMS) voltage of the output AC signal and it is spot on. Though this is without any ouput load so it could have changed once load was applied.

    I also stated that I used another inverter and it worked fine, so it couldnt be the ATX power supply tolerance since the inverter I have at the moment is actually better, tolerance wise.

    Thanks for all your suggestions however. Based on what I have said above do you have any other ideas?

  5. #15
    Maximum Bitrate falconey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntellaWorks
    Well, beleive me or not but its the solution to most of your power problems.
    It's not a question of believing you or not and it's not my problem. That's why I didn't understand. I have a cheapo inverter and don't have the issue you explained. That's all I was saying. It doesn't rule it out for Chris, but my thoughts were more along the lines of why my cheapo inverter and the many other inverter users don't have this problem, but he does.

  6. #16
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    Sorry I have just noticed that the diagram that you posted is slightly confusing as the sine wave and ac power should both be pure sine. and your DC power is actually a squarewave which should just be a straight line.

    I understand what you mean though about the differnce between modified and pure sine.

  7. #17
    Maximum Bitrate falconey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC
    This is not really true when you look at the input stage of most PSUs as the AC is reftified and then capcitace smoothed and if you look at the damping ratio value of the capacitor in the input stage it will cause the ouput DC signal to be well within the limits of variance on the ouput side. As we are not intrested in the inputs to the atx supply but the output, especially on the grey "always on" wire that powers the chip on the motherboard that controls the startup.

    What you say about heat also doesnt hold as this will happen after 30 seconds of usage or 10 hours. I initially also though it was this also, but after testing it out I descovered that it was fine.

    You are completely correct that most equipment would like pure sine waves rather than modified however this only really applied to things that are driven off AC directly. For example if I used an AC motor on the modified sine wave it would not work at all correctly. The fact that most AC to DC converted are rectifier and capacitace smoothed means that you can use modifed sine wave inverters perfectly.

    I have also tested, using a multimeter, the frequency and peak to peak (also RMS) voltage of the output AC signal and it is spot on. Though this is without any ouput load so it could have changed once load was applied.

    I also stated that I used another inverter and it worked fine, so it couldnt be the ATX power supply tolerance since the inverter I have at the moment is actually better, tolerance wise.

    Thanks for all your suggestions however. Based on what I have said above do you have any other ideas?
    Well it could just be a bad inverter. Before you pull out anymore hairs I'd try the swap. It seems you're pretty knowledgeable about this and the circuit design you have should work. As picky as relay's are it could still be something to do with that but I doubt it.

  8. #18
    FLAC IntellaWorks's Avatar
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    Your tests are off because you never put a load onto the converter..


    When I said heat, I also said stress. You heat up and stress your converters components. This explains why it happens within 30 seconds or 10 hours, it all depends on the amount of stress you put on the system.

    Electrical components spike when turned on immediatly, your inverter might not be able to handle that spike everytime because power spikes are never the same. If it's a modified sine wave and the components are stressed the output of the inverter is worse than normal causing your PC to "look at the power" I know your pc is looking at the power because you said the light comes on briefly. But the power supply denies the power because it doesnt look correctly.

    A true sine wave inverter OR DC-DC PSU w/ Voltage regulation will solve your problem.
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  9. #19
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    What do you mean by stress? Do you mean that the capacitors dielectric has broken down? If so the inverter would purely not work at all or cause very spiked output all the time , load or no load. Then again this could depend on which capacuitors.

    The inverter can support 1000W peak spikes for upto 0.5 seconds which is why it is designed in this way. The power supply is 250W and the inverter is 300W and the pc probably only uses about 180-200W at max. So I dought its because the components in the inverter at being pushed. I have run the PC on a 140W inverter before with no issue apart from it heated up after a hour or so and shutdown! This issue did not manifest itself.

    Why are you so ademant that a true sine wave inverter will solve the problem, what is the problem it will it solve exactly?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconey
    It's not a question of believing you or not and it's not my problem. That's why I didn't understand. I have a cheapo inverter and don't have the issue you explained. That's all I was saying. It doesn't rule it out for Chris, but my thoughts were more along the lines of why my cheapo inverter and the many other inverter users don't have this problem, but he does.

    You got lucky.
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