Turn off Delay ... ideas please ....

**JPMG** · 10-21-2006, 09:08 PM

Well I have been testing out the prototype in the car and came up with an interesting problem ... I need a way to delay the shut down a bit more. Got some great little PSU ideas for the truck system. Thanks!

Right now I have an M1-ATX that is working well, it is set to come on when I start the car or when the dome light goes on. That way when you hit the unlock remote it starts up the computer. The problem is that the light goes out in about 20 seconds. If you get to the car and start it .. fine ... otherwise an interesting rub.

Sometimes I come out to find that it did not recover from the hibernate and is in the middle of a restart message. It looks like it shut down in the middle of starting up.

So ......

Is there a small circuit that would switch the internal ACC line for a bit of time, then drop it? I was thinking along the lines if a mini relay (12v / 1A type) plus perhaps a timer of some sort. The goal would be to have it latch the internal ACC to the 12v HOT when it gets an external ACC signal. Then after say about 2 mins or so cut out, so that the ACC line is then fed again by the external signal (as normal).

Thus if the car was running, no problem .. everthing is fine.
But if the car was off, the boot (or whatever) was completed and the standard PSU shutdown sequence can begin.

Seem simple .... is it?

Thanks for any ideas!
... Mike ...

**Wiredwrx** · 10-21-2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by JPMG

Well I have been testing out the prototype in the car and came up with an interesting problem ... I need a way to delay the shut down a bit more. Got some great little PSU ideas for the truck system. Thanks!

Right now I have an M1-ATX that is working well, it is set to come on when I start the car or when the dome light goes on. That way when you hit the unlock remote it starts up the computer. The problem is that the light goes out in about 20 seconds. If you get to the car and start it .. fine ... otherwise an interesting rub.

Sometimes I come out to find that it did not recover from the hibernate and is in the middle of a restart message. It looks like it shut down in the middle of starting up.

So ......

Is there a small circuit that would switch the internal ACC line for a bit of time, then drop it? I was thinking along the lines if a mini relay (12v / 1A type) plus perhaps a timer of some sort. The goal would be to have it latch the internal ACC to the 12v HOT when it gets an external ACC signal. Then after say about 2 mins or so cut out, so that the ACC line is then fed again by the external signal (as normal).

Thus if the car was running, no problem .. everthing is fine.
But if the car was off, the boot (or whatever) was completed and the standard PSU shutdown sequence can begin.

Seem simple .... is it?

Thanks for any ideas!
... Mike ...

Your terminology is confusing. What is the "internal acc" and "latch the internal acc to 12v HOT" and then "external acc signal" Then you say, after 2 mins, cut the ACC line. Which acc line, internal or external.

It is very confusing the way you presented it. If all you need is to lengthen the time that the 12 volt signal from the light system of the car stays on for the M1, you can try an RC circuit. CHeck out www.the12volt.vom

Also, doesn't the M1 have ABCD jumpers. They determine the timing for shutdown. You can make it 30 seconds before it sends the shutdown signal, that, with the cars 20 seconds or so gives you almost a minute to get in the car and start it up.

Michael

**JPMG** · 10-21-2006, 11:26 PM

OK . ... first let me make it a bit more clear.

What I am looking for is:
1) The car ACC line goes hot (12v), this is what I called the external ACC.
2) A [THING] is activated by this going to 12v (say a relay)
3) The [THING] connects the ACC line inside the computer (before it gets to the M1-ATX) to the constant on 12v line which is also inside the computer. (with a diode to prevent backflow).
4) After a certain period of time, the [THING] disconects, and the ACC line to the M1 is only supplied 12v from the line coming in from the car.

Actually, if this was the ADDAMS FAMILY, I could use "Thing", since a disembodied hand could just do it for me.

However, lacking that, I figured electronics was the way to go.

But I do think of the ACC line as "internal" and "external" since I put test switch on them. So when I am bench or car testing all I do is thow it one way and the ACC line is powered from the constant 12V, thus making the M1 turn on.

That's what made me wonder about this. Perhaps a more proper term would be a relay activated by a delay timer.

It all gets back to the M1 time delay being too short. When you activate the M1 there is about a 5 second delay until it turns on the computer. Also the lights dim to off at the end of 20 seconds. So prior to 20 seconds the light power voltage had probably dropped below the M1-ATX activation threshold.

Thus effectively there is maybe a 10 second boot time window before the system sends the hibernate signal. I think the system ignores this since it is starting and the M1 waits until the hardtime limit and just cuts the power.

The only delay times the unit supports are 5 sec, 30sec, 30 mins, 3 hours. I don't want to go with the last two, since they leave the power on always (unless the battery gets too low).

Whew ..... lots of words .. but does that make sense?

Cheers!
... M ...

**Wiredwrx** · 10-22-2006, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by JPMG

OK . ... first let me make it a bit more clear.

What I am looking for is:
1) The car ACC line goes hot (12v), this is what I called the external ACC.

O.K., but generally, "HOT" is refered to as either hi, or active, but I understand that

Originally Posted by JPMG

2) A [THING] is activated by this going to 12v (say a relay)

When you say "this going to 12volts, are you refering to the relay going to 12 volts, or the acc you mentioned right above. You say (say relay) but is that the "thing" or the what is going to 12 volts?

Originally Posted by JPMG

3) The [THING] connects the ACC line inside the computer (before it gets to the M1-ATX) to the constant on 12v line which is also inside the computer. (with a diode to prevent backflow).

What/what is an "Acc line Inside the computer" and "before it gets to the m1" to what "constant on the 12v line which is also inside the computer" You never mentioned any "lines" in "the computer" How are there lines in the computer BEFORE the M1. The M1 comes BEFORE the computer (power form battery, to M1, to Computer. If the power is in the computer, how can it be before the M1, the computer is AFTER the M1.

Originally Posted by JPMG

4) After a certain period of time, the [THING] disconects, and the ACC line to the M1 is only supplied 12v from the line coming in from the car.

What does the "thing" diconnect? Does it diconnect from the M1, or does it disconnect a voltage or ground from the M1. Is that inside the computer?

Originally Posted by JPMG

Actually, if this was the ADDAMS FAMILY, I could use "Thing", since a disembodied hand could just do it for me.

However, lacking that, I figured electronics was the way to go.

I agree, but if you had a "thing" that would be totally cool for computer control.

Originally Posted by JPMG

But I do think of the ACC line as "internal" and "external" since I put test switch on them. So when I am bench or car testing all I do is thow it one way and the ACC line is powered from the constant 12V, thus making the M1 turn on.

That's what made me wonder about this. Perhaps a more proper term would be a relay activated by a delay timer.

Perhaps, depends on what you actually are trying to accomplish.

Originally Posted by JPMG

It all gets back to the M1 time delay being too short. When you activate the M1 there is about a 5 second delay until it turns on the computer. Also the lights dim to off at the end of 20 seconds. So prior to 20 seconds the light power voltage had probably dropped below the M1-ATX activation threshold.

The M2 will operate when the accessory wire gets as little as 5 volts. I would assume the M1 does as well, they are extremely similar in design.

Originally Posted by JPMG

Thus effectively there is maybe a 10 second boot time window before the system sends the hibernate signal. I think the system ignores this since it is starting and the M1 waits until the hardtime limit and just cuts the power.

If you set the jumper to 30 seconds, then it will give the computer more time to boot. But, perhaps there is another solution.

Originally Posted by JPMG

The only delay times the unit supports are 5 sec, 30sec, 30 mins, 3 hours. I don't want to go with the last two, since they leave the power on always (unless the battery gets too low).

Whew ..... lots of words .. but does that make sense?

Cheers!
... M ...

Let me see if I can be more specific.

You have a switched accessory wire that is connected to the M1 so the M1 can sense ignition. You would like to/have tapped into a wire that goes hi/has 12 volts when you unlock the car, in order to simulate/provide a 12 volt signal to the M1 on the accessory wire in order to start the carputer. We'll call this the "unlock signal" However, the "unlock signal" is only present for approximately 20 seconds or less, and this causes the carputer to not start or shut down properly because the M1 loses the accessory signal from the "unlock signal" after 20 seconds. You are looking for a device or circuit that will extend the signal of the "unlock signal" to avoid the startup and shutdown signals.

Am I correct?

I will put something together, and post it soon.

Michael

**Wiredwrx** · 10-22-2006, 02:08 AM

Well, here you go.

Here is a webpage about relays. http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp You will notice that in my drawing, I have boxes with 5 lines in them (there are 3) They correspond to the drawings on that page.

Michael

**@rie** · 10-22-2006, 06:34 AM

what you could do is placing a relais powered by your usb ports
you swith the acc, your pc powers on, the usb port gets powered and relais swithes.
Also when shutting down the power is connected when pc is off

**JPMG** · 10-22-2006, 10:41 AM

I think it is getting closer ... thanks for getting around my incorrect terms.
Last night I had way toooo much coffee and went down to the bench to start searching the web .... looks like the same time you posted! I thnk what I need is a 555 in monostable operatino to create a dealy timer.

After looking at what is in the case and what I want to accomplish, it looks like I will need the following pieces ... now how to link them together. Also this might better explain it.

Terms:
ACC = Accesory line (switched), used as a signal to activate the M1-ATX
HOT = Vehicle 12V power (always hot), provied power to computer
GND = Ground (0v)

Parts:
LM555 timer
Diode(s)
Resistor(s)
Capcitor(s)
Small Relay (12v/low current) (I have a few of these, they are small PCB relays that operate at 12V, low current and about 1A through. Used for telephones and such. Should be OK to switch the ACC line, since this line is used for signalling and not power supply)

Power Available:
12v regulated power
5V regulated power

Goal:
The ACC line should stay hot for a minimum amount of time once activated to allow correct startup/shutdown process to occur. This circuit insures that the ACC line will remain hot for ( ?? ) minutes after initial starup signal.

Operation:
1) Car is turned on, or dome light comes on.
2) ACC line rises to 12 volts
3) LM555 sends output (12v) to activate relay coil.
4) Relay closes and connects ACC to HOT.
(ACC to the M1-ATX is now fed by both the HOT and ACC line from the car)
5) Delay period begins
6) Delay period ends
7) LM555 stops output to the relay coil.
8) Relay opens and disconnects ACC from HOT.
(ACC to the M1-ATX is now fed only by the ACC line from the car)

From what I have seen of the circuit diagrams, there are resistors, caps, diodes, etc to supply power to the various pins of the timer and also set the delay time and operation. Now the question is how to put them together to make it work.

I also saw some RC circuits where a capacitor was charged and after power was removed it worked with the resistor to continue to power the relay coil for a certain amount of time. I did not want to go that way since it would mean the relay coil would be charged all the time (something not needed) and also it would delay shutdown (something not wanted).

Maybe the correct term would be that I am trying to make a time startup relay latch (??)

My prior post may have been confusing, since I tend to think of EXTERNAL as outside the computer case. This would be the vehicle power and ACC lines. In the same way, INTERNAL is once they enter the case. All this is before the lines get to the M1. This might help (looking at the ACC line):

(CURRENT)
CAR ACC-->|CASE WALL|--------+
....................................[MANUAL SWITCH]-------->M1-ATX (ACC)
CAR HOT-->[CASE WALL|--------+------------------>M1-ATX (HOT)

With this I can manualy switch the ACC feed to the M1-ATX from the ACC supplied by the car, to that supplied by HOT. When I bring the case into the bench all I have to do is plug in the wall power supply and throw the switch and it fires up. Also if I want to turn it on or leave it on when the car is off it does that too. Diodes protect from backflow.

(PLANNED TO BE ADDDED)
CAR ACC-->|CASE WALL|--------+----------------->M1-ATX (ACC)
....................................[THING SWITCH]
CAR HOT-->[CASE WALL|--------+------------------>M1-ATX (HOT)

Similar to the manual switch, the THING will connect the ACC line of the M1 to the HOT line for a period of time. After that time is will disconnect and the M1 ACC will be supplied only by the ACC from the car. From that point on the M1 can shutdown if the ACC is still low, but the computer will have fnished a successful startup and can shutdown correctly.

The reason for the delay timer is to keep the ACC line high (activated) for a set time once the PSU is running. Since I have the power and lines to swich all available inside of the case, I thought a very small and simple circuit would doit.

Wheww .... lots of writing .... hope this helps.

Thanks!
... Mike ...

**Wiredwrx** · 10-22-2006, 06:47 PM

K,

getting a little better, but I think I finally understand.

You want the M1 to start when you turn the key, and ALSO, when you unlock the doors, by triggering the M1 to start when the light comes on, and then, once it is activated by the light, after a certain amount of time, the signal should drop, and then the M1 can shutdown.

Is there a reason you need the signal to drop. Is there a reason you need the signal to drop, and shut down the computer?

The circuit I posted does the following.

The acc of the car will turn the computer on like it should.

Also, if you unlock the car, and the light goes on, it will trigger the M1 to start, BUT IT WILL STAY STARTED. Then, when you get in the car and turn the key, the accessory will take over control of the carputer, and the carputer will stay running. WHen you get out of the car, and take out the key, the carputer will shutdown. HOWEVER, if you unlock the car, and NEVER GET IN and turn the key, the carputer will stay on forever, or untill you get in and turn the key.

These relays can be replaced with much smaller relays, you don't need auto relays. As long as they are SPDT and you follow the pinout correctly. Youo cna then mount them inside the computer case if you like.

Michael

**JPMG** · 10-22-2006, 07:46 PM

We might be starting to communicate

Basically the THING should connect the HOT to the ACC for the M1 when it gets an ACC signal, then after a period of time no longer connect the HOT to ACC. From that point if the ACC is high, the computer stays on, but if the ACC is not high, then the M1 can begin it's own shutdown proceedure.

I wanted to go that route since if I have to lock the car from a distance, the dome light comes on automatically and I did not want the computer to come on and stay on.

Looking on the net I found a circuit that might work ... I redid it a bit and included it below. It seems to use the resistor and cap to supply a reserve bit of power to transistor that switches on the relay coil. Once the ACC goes low, the RC reserve power dissapates after a set period of time, the transistor turns off, the coil deactivates and turns off the connection.

The only downside to this is:
1) Would delay all shutdowns ....
2) Uses a 2N2700 MOSFET transistor .... the only ones I could find were 2N2222 which I think uses more power and might not work.

Upside is:
1) Small (would fir on my little internal board)
2) Easy to implement.

If you or anyone here has an idea to improve it, suggestions or alternate part ideas .... I'm ready for any input!

I am a bit concernes since the drawing may be wrong .. it seems to show the D and S lines both tied to ground ... would this work ????

Thanks!
... Mike ...
[Possible THING circuit below]

**Wiredwrx** · 10-22-2006, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by JPMG

We might be starting to communicate

Basically the THING should connect the HOT to the ACC for the M1 when it gets an ACC signal, then after a period of time no longer connect the HOT to ACC. From that point if the ACC is high, the computer stays on, but if the ACC is not high, then the M1 can begin it's own shutdown proceedure.

I wanted to go that route since if I have to lock the car from a distance, the dome light comes on automatically and I did not want the computer to come on and stay on.

Looking on the net I found a circuit that might work ... I redid it a bit and included it below. It seems to use the resistor and cap to supply a reserve bit of power to transistor that switches on the relay coil. Once the ACC goes low, the RC reserve power dissapates after a set period of time, the transistor turns off, the coil deactivates and turns off the connection.

The only downside to this is:
1) Would delay all shutdowns ....
2) Uses a 2N2700 MOSFET transistor .... the only ones I could find were 2N2222 which I think uses more power and might not work.

Upside is:
1) Small (would fir on my little internal board)
2) Easy to implement.

If you or anyone here has an idea to improve it, suggestions or alternate part ideas .... I'm ready for any input!

I am a bit concernes since the drawing may be wrong .. it seems to show the D and S lines both tied to ground ... would this work ????

Thanks!
... Mike ...
[Possible THING circuit below]

Man, you are still confusing me. WTF are you trying to accomplish. That circuit, which won't work for various reasons by the way, seems to me like you are trying to keep the cars acc active/high after you remove the key. WHY? First of all, the M1 has the ability to stay running for at least 30 seconds after loss of the accessory signal. Please, with some specificity, without telling me what power wires you want to use, what is constant and what is switched, tell me what the car does when you lock and unlock the car, in particular, the lights that you seem to want to utilize (though you don't use them at all in the diagram you just posted) when you unlock (and I think also lock) the car, and what you want to accomplish. Again, no need to tell me whaty is constant and switched and grounded. Just tell me what you want to accomplsih. First, it seemed you wanted to something, that when you unlock the car, and the dojme light comes on, it will start the carputer. However, since the light only stays on for about 20 seconds, the loss of that dome light signal caused the computer to not fully start, and then get locked up when it started to shutdown while the carputer was booting. You then wanted something that would enable the carputer to fully boot, and then fully shutdown. Now, you are basically saying you want the carputer to stay booted for a certain amount of time AFTER you drive the car, and then to shutdown normally. Like I said, I am confused by what you need/want.

Please explain.

Michael