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Thread: '97 Civic DX 2dr ~ Turtlegrip's NeuroPod -MicroATX Slim-

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by req View Post
    just a fy, your subwoofers (old school rockford pro from the 90's?) are totally destroyed. the surrounds are rotted out and i think that you should go and buy some cheap replacement speakers.

    i just wanted to point that out. regardless of the wavelength of bass below ~80hz being omnidirectional, they are busted. and besides, the direction of the subwoofer does matter, because the frontwave being in phase with the midbass is important - without time correction the only way you can adjust this is physical placement. aiming the speaker at the trunk forces the frontwave to reflect off the rear of the car and travel a few more feet of distance causing a slight time delay... you could also swap the polarity of the subwoofers at the terminals for a 180* phase shift, but thats a hit or miss kind of thing.

    either way - your subs are tore up and dry rotted. you need to change them.
    ya they are beat up, but that is the rubber seal around the rim that has very very little to do with the sound produced; sound is made by the movement of the cone which has no holes in it. replacing the rubber rim would be a million times easier than getting new speakers. And trying to get waves in sync by the placement of the subs is going to be unrealistically hard (your trunk is not a perfect flat reflective surface), you just need to listen for it being close enough synced, and they way my speakers are now cause no cancellation, meaning that they add to each other and are in phase (you can switch one your subs or speakers +/- terminals and youll hear what cancellation sounds like). And I have tried no name, sony and alpine 12" sub replacements and none of them hit nearly as hard as these, these still sound perfect on every 808 and everything else, just because speakers are new does not make them better speakers. Appreciate your concern though... ;P
    Last edited by turtlegrip; 04-26-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  2. #12
    req
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlegrip View Post
    ya they are beat up, but that is the rubber seal around the rim that has very very little to do with the sound produced; sound is made by the movement of the cone which has no holes in it. replacing the rubber rim would be a million times easier than getting new speakers. And trying to get waves in sync by the placement of the subs is going to be unrealistically hard (your trunk is not a perfect flat reflective surface), you just need to listen for it being close enough synced, and they way my speakers are now cause no cancellation, meaning that they add to each other and are in phase (you can switch one your subs or speakers +/- terminals and youll hear what cancellation sounds like). And I have tried no name, sony and alpine 12" sub replacements and none of them hit nearly as hard as these, these still sound perfect on every 808 and everything else, just because speakers are new does not make them better speakers. Appreciate your concern though... ;P
    With all due respect, a few pointers;

    First of all, I was referring to the SURROUND of the speaker, not the gasket that is clearly made of paper in case you decide to invert the speaker for something like an isobaric type enclosure. You're subwoofers do not have a rubber surround. They are from the early 90's and do not have a UV treatment and they are made of foam. Now that we are both on the same page about that, they are at the point where i am surprised your voice coil is still intact. Based on UV exposure, moisture, and time, non-treated foam speaker surrounds decay and erode. After this happens, and they are still in use, the foam will literally fall apart due to the vibrations. it is clear that this has happened to your speakers. You see, the surround (as you called it, "the rubber thing") is a suspension part. Just the like suspension on an automobile, it is there to keep the movement of the voice coil former traveling in a linear path while it passes the magnetic flux gap between the T-yoke and the top plate of the speaker’s motor structure. The reason that it must be linear is one of distortion. Any movement in the lateral plane results in physical distortion of the music produced by the vibrations in the air, not to mention when the former hits the T-yoke or the top plate, it makes some terrible scratching noises. Therefore, the surround of a speaker is directly linked to the fidelity of muisc produced from said device. So your argument about it not having anything to do with sound quality means that you know nothing about how a speaker works.



    Second, the placement of a speaker in a listening environment is very crucial. Since it is of one’s best interested get the environment set up as best as possible to start out with the best possible results before relying on outboard digital signal processing (or analog depending on one's equipment). Even though the trunk of an automobile may not be flat, it still causes a time delay function on the front wave of the audio output of a speaker that causes a phase shift. It might only be a 15* shift, but looking at your setup I can come to a strong conclusion that you do not have any time correction software\hardware meaning you only have the ability to adjust the speakers 180* by flipping the polarity of the subwoofers at the amplifier or enclosure terminals. Phase is one of the easiest disruptions for humans to pick up on, specifically in the low frequency range, so to me it is the most important function to try and get right. It really is not difficult to hear or adjust for either. You say that this is unrealistic, but manufacturers sell time correction equipment that can be attenuated in the 1 millisecond range, this would be equivalent to moving a subwoofer about one foot.So you're argument about how phase adjustment being unrealistically hard shows that you know nothing about setting up a speaker system properly.

    Lastly, just because you tried an alpine speaker, a Sony speaker, or whatever else (I’m sure in the same enclosure that you had your Rockford’s in) and they sounded crappy, does not mean that they are inferior to the Rockford subwoofers. Each loudspeaker has its own Thiele-Small parameters that dictate what kind of enclosure would be optimum. That means that the box you had your Rockford’s in is most likely not suitable for the other subwoofers. Try building a proper enclosure for something and you may be surprised at what new technology has to offer over old, overhung voice coil topologies from the 90's. So you're argument about your old speakers sounding better than new\other speakers is out because it shows you do not know anything about speaker enclosures or parameters.

    Did I miss something?

    Please do not disregard the knowledge of other people on the internet based on their post count. I was only trying to suggest something that could help.

    Andy.
    Team DIYMA sound quality competitor
    Last edited by req; 04-04-2012 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #13
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    Thats one crazy tear down. Might have to try swapping that 99-00 console into my 98.

  4. #14
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    I think req is a little butthurt. Just because you have more knowledge and experience in the field, does not mean that you can just tell everyone else "you know nothing". Some of us actually just do this for fun and therefore the philosophy of ONLY perfection does not really apply. Its cool that maybe you have useful information to provide, and that is appreciated, but no need to be a dick about it. Turtle grip has a sweet project and everything seems to work well for him. Enjoying music is not a science. Audio quality will always be subjective so you can't tell someone what the right way is.

  5. #15
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    troll else ware.
    Last edited by turtlegrip; 04-26-2012 at 08:22 PM.

  6. #16
    req
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    its one thing to say that im buthurt, but its another thing to defend a guy who tells a person off who is trying to help in the first place.

    i am not offended by much, but when i offer my time to somone who obviously needs it only to get told that i dont know what im talking about, its a little offensive.

    and when the guy says that the surround of a speaker is not related to the sound quality of a speaker - it is a fact that he indeed is ignorant on the topic.

    i do not intend to be offensive, only as straight forward as possible. enjoying music is objective, audio quality is not.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duncanator24 View Post
    I think req is a little butthurt. Just because you have more knowledge and experience in the field, does not mean that you can just tell everyone else "you know nothing". Some of us actually just do this for fun and therefore the philosophy of ONLY perfection does not really apply. Its cool that maybe you have useful information to provide, and that is appreciated, but no need to be a dick about it. Turtle grip has a sweet project and everything seems to work well for him. Enjoying music is not a science. Audio quality will always be subjective so you can't tell someone what the right way is.


    that is like saying "as long as he likes driving his car with only 3 out of 4 cylinders functioning, who cares"

    there is a right way to do things and a wrong way. he tried wrong, only 1 option left

  8. #18
    req
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlegrip View Post
    the rubber thing does not stop the cone from moving too high, WRONG (it keeps it center and absorbs some sound/holds air pressure). speakers do not have to face away from each other to be inphase, WRONG. Being inphase is also relatively easy to hear, youll start losing frequencies fast when not inphase and if you actually listen to music you will hear things are missing when not inphase; most amplifiers i have seen have delays on them or a delay box is cheap but still not necessary. Ill put my subs against what ever ones you say are better, and mine will still sound cleaner and hit harder, so you are still WRONG (already tried a bunch).
    Sorry but again, just cause you like to spend lots of money on new speakers all the time does not make them sound better.

    Speakers that still produce the full range of sound they are supposed to do not deserve to be replaced.

    Again, thanks for your concern but you are just wrong here, theory does not always work out in the real world these speakers have produced amazing sound for years and years to come. I would still replace the rubber thing for 10$ before I buy some new crappy subs, they do not make them like they used to. Now I would imaging you have something better to be doing with all that knowledge, boy.
    Sir, I do not know where you think you are getting your knowledge from, but you are clearly not an expert on speakers.

    the surround of a speaker (the red arrow points to it above) is a SUSPENSION part. It servs two purposes. First, it acts as a linear control of the voice coil and cone. It keeps the speaker moving up and down, and does not allow it to move side to side, the surround in conjunction with the spider control this alone. Without two control points on an actuator or piston (voice coil + magnet, in this case is the actuator) it WILL move in a non linear fashion effectly ruining the sound quality output and possibly rubbing the voice coil on the top plate of the motor - and it will eventually cause a short or an open in the voice coil - destroying the speaker further than yours already are.

    The second thing that a surround does is seal the enclosure. It isolates the backwave (negative wave) from the front wave (posative wave) so that there is no cancelation between the two. If your surround is torn ALL THE WAY AROUND, then the backwave will escape through the front, basically negating a bunch of sound that youd like to have through the speaker.

    here is a little reading material;
    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker3.htm
    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker4.htm

    Whatever you are talking about speakers facing eachother is irrelavant because I didnt say anything about that. So I dont know where you are comming from. I didnt say any other speakers were better or worse, I meerly said yours are broken and theres lots of new technology out these days that makes speakers generally better - like UV coatings for foam surrounds so that they do not break down like yours.

    just look up how speakers work - im sure it will make more sense to you as you obviously do not know how they work.

    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker5.htm

    have a nice day.

  9. #19
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    Nothing annoys me more than someone who refuse to "try something on". Instead of shooting down someones comments, try taking it in and maybe learning a thing or two. It could make your installs look and sound better. If I acted like that, i would never be where I am today, and still learning.

  10. #20
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    Nothing annoys me more than someone who refuse to "try it on". Instead of just shooting down someones comments, why not take it in and perhaps learn a thing or two? Your install might look and sound better because of it. If I acted like that, I would not be where I am today, and still learning...

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