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Thread: Why noone cares about FE X

  1. #11
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    i like kev, he brings a different flavor to the table. No doubt he has innovative ideas as well, and definitely the motivation to get it done right.
    I do agree some stuff he has done seem a bit like advertising his product, but if you don't like it, you don't have to read it. Advertising never hurts, especially if it attract more developers.

  2. #12
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    Well hopefully this comment will carry some weight as another FE developer working to overcome similar obstacles.

    To say this didn't carry any subliminal advertising for linuxICE would certainly be untrue. However, i do find quite a few of his points to be correct, just the interpretation to be a little off. The average user does not like change for the sake of change, being told that one FE is better then another even by a developer that knows what they are talking about carries very little weight. People want palpable features!!! Just another FE capable of playing music or accepting plugins doesn't draw users the same way modern bluetooth, nextGen speech recognition or well integrated navigation do.

    The sad fact here is that this FE may be a well designed very scalable FE or it may be a terrible architecture that just happens to have a few new features (Sorry but RR's getting singled out there). All we as FE developers can do is design the best FE possible, so that when the icing on the cake is added (the real innovation), and people find something they like, its not just slightly better icing but an all around better cake.

  3. #13
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    Just do what my old telco did - design a plug&play system - ie, a telco management system in to which you plug any new & yet to be invented & built device or RFC etc, and the management system recognises it, manages it etc - ie, Plug & Play!
    Simple!

    They started the project 3 times, each time and $50m later blaming the contractors for failing to get it to work.
    (I merely did a simple cost benefit analysis that proved I could have saved them $150m.)

    But if you want to do the same for UFEs, I'll gladly Project Manage it for you. And I guarantee the vendors/contractors will complete their parts.

    Personally prefer cross-assemblers....

    (Onya Kev! I think most share your wit.)

  4. #14
    Fusion Brain Creator 2k1Toaster's Avatar
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    Well I will try to respond in a way that isnt upsetting... Although, I truly did lol with post #2. Everyone loves klingon!


    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    1 - Most forum members aren't developers, they are integrators.

    Integrators take part A and part Y and combine them in innovative ways that turn out to be really cool. Most forum members start out with the idea that they want a carpc. They read, they build, rebuild and adapt to the different technologies.

    New and innovative frontend software likely has only a handful (or less) users, and so information about how they members get that particular peice of software to work with X device is limited.
    I would agree that people here are mostly integrators, and most of them around here (or that even know what a CarPC is) probably have a basic programming language under their belt, just choose not to use it. Most of us here, including myself try out new programs all the time even without the intent of using them, just wanting to see what they are about. If it blows me away, then it might stay, otherwise it just goes where all software dies in windows, a deep dark chasm of the registry just waiting to be corrupted.


    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    2a - Most members who are developers will have more fun doing their own software

    If you are a software guy, then you've probably been developing your own one-off frontend that does what you need. Working with other people that you don't know and don't neccessarily agree with their coding style isn't very fun. That's, after all, what you do in your real job. Time to do something your way!

    New frontends have 1 developer. They may pick up another dedicated soul or two, but it's rare. This leads to slower development and eventually to #4.

    2b - Many developers start as integrators

    it seems like many developers start out this hobby as integrators. They build the ultimate system, and they soon reach the limitations of the current software (which is likely CF or RR). They then choose to simply add a plugin or two instead of reinvent the wheel that they are currently running very well and have come to love.
    I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. I write code for my stuff but I do NOT want to right code to do things that are perfectly ok as-is.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    3 - Most forum members are *gasp* windows users.

    While there are obvious benefits to running windows in the car (ie,make specific tuner software), forum members are comfortable with the OS that they grew up with.
    Probably true. However I used an AT machine with a dot matrix until I built my own P4 in the early 2000's. I had to dosshell into it, and I do still use it to read/write 5.25" floppies, but it isnt going in the car. Plain and simple no matter how much you hate Microsoft, they have got it right. Microsoft should adopt Apple's slogan since it holds true more. It just works. And everything works with it. Nothing you can do in OSX or Linux or FreeBSD or whatever that would be in the slightest bit useful for the car, can you not do in Windows. And to expand that there are very few things that cannot be done on a windows machine that cant be done on other personal computers.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    Furthermore, products like LinuxICE while faster and more integrated than a windows based system, has a scary penguin as a mascot.
    May be true, minus the scary bit, but fundamentally you are missing one thing... It doesnt have what people want. If you had a replicator ala star trek that could make vehicles, would you:

    a) replicate a formula 1 car that is extremely light, extremely fast, and extremely integrated
    or
    b) replicate a luxury coupe/sedan that is bloated, comfy, fast enough, modularized (whole point of a CAN system fyi) and has everything you can want and works everytime by turning the key instead of an hour of warming the tires and checking bits for dust

    Most people including myself want something that just works, and well Windows does.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    Who knows anything about penguins? Probably noone. They are creatures of mystery. Most people haven't even seen a real penguin and the penguins you see in movies (ie, in Madagascar) are meddlesome and conspiring creatures just waiting to highjack your jeep and leave you alone on the African grasslands to be eaten by lions or the occasional zebra (heaven forbid a liger attack you).
    Penguins are mean critters, but I love them so... I've seen many real penguins yet never in the wild. They smell nasty though.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    To make barriers more persistent, Linux users, while few, are very particular about their distro. Some prefer ubuntu, some prefer fedora, some like compiling their lives away using gentoo (OCD people usually fall into the gentoo pit-of-despair as well).
    how very true

    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    4 - CF/RR has the-kitchen-sink plugin.

    Sure, LinuxICE may have the manipulate-time-and-space plugin, and nGhost may be able to solve world hunger, it's still missing the-kitchen-sink. Yep, because of the plethera of plugins available to-do-just-about-anything, up and coming frontends have a hard time convincing anyone to use your interesting-but-lacking frontend.
    I dont use ANY plugins outside the standard install of RR. I think this is the typical installation. People want something that works, plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    <snip blah snip />

    In other words:
    "RR doesn't suck enough to make people stop using it, and linuxice runs on linux"

    This has been bothering me for most of your posts. It is a great tact for arguing with idiots, but it doesnt work for those with connected brain cells. You say two things that are true and connect them with a verb in the wrong part of the sentence. This is used all the time and seriously, if you are every arguing with an art/history major it works wonders.

    "RR doesnt suck enough to make people stop using it" is a fact. "Linuxice runs on linux" is a fact. Completely unrelated.

    Similar to: "LinuxICE sucks enough that people dont want to adopt it as their primary frontend, and RoadRunner runs on Windows... and unicorn marrow."

    If linuxice ran on unicorn marrow or if possible the blood of that annoying gecko on tv, yet still had the same feature set, I still dont think people would adopt it.
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  5. #15
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    WARNING! Do NOT pick on penguins!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2k1Toaster View Post
    Penguins are mean critters, but I love them so... I've seen many real penguins yet never in the wild. They smell nasty though.
    Well I've seen them in the wild. Trust me, I've never seen polar bears chase them.

    But that could be their smell.
    I have swum with them and they are no match for White Pointers, and whilst the great whites have a great sense of smell, compared to their breath I'd consider a penguin to be an ADM.

    Just imparting the benefits of my experience.

    And for what it's worth, whilst one of my current aims in life is to pat a Great White (and not from those stupid cages!), I have no such desire for a Penguin.


    FYI: ADM = After Dinner Mint

  6. #16
    Fusion Brain Creator 2k1Toaster's Avatar
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    Well I just took my penguin slippers off, and left the room with my 1m tall stuff penguin (next to my travelocity roming gnome). So hopefully the penguin gods wont be too upset...
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  7. #17
    licensed to kill - FKA kev000
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    And everything works with it. Nothing you can do in OSX or Linux or FreeBSD or whatever that would be in the slightest bit useful for the car, can you not do in Windows.
    Nothing... except boot in about 5 seconds to being able to play music, video, navigate via gps in every country in the world*, keep the entire os and every package up to date with a single click, do obd/gps logging, syncing it all via wifi, -all of which is free, fast, open source and installed in less than 10 minutes on a presetup/preconfigured redistributable iso image.

    And to expand that there are very few things that cannot be done on a windows machine that cant be done on other personal computers.
    Yep. I mentioned one example in my op: special tuner software.

    I do think Linux is a learning curve that keeps many people away from it. When you can't get device xyz working in windows, a windows guy usually knows what to do. The same guy isn't going to know wth 'lsusb' is or grep and bash looks like DOS except none of the old commands you know work. That and the fact that none of your navigation or other apps you bought work on the thing either (ie iGuidance) keep adopters from sticking with it.

    LinuxICE's problem isn't that it doesn't cover the basics. LinuxICE's problem is that it is beta quality software. There still a few bugs that make you have to drop to the CLI to get say touchscreen working. I actually don't recommend trying it out until final release unless you already know that penguins don't stink when underwater.

    But that hasn't stopped a whole bunch of people from trying it and even using it daily in their cars. I don't expect it to be replacing everyone's RR system anytime soon though, which is what the OP is about.
    Former author of LinuxICE, nghost, nobdy.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev000 View Post
    Nothing... except boot in about 5 seconds to being able to play music, video, navigate via gps in every country in the world*,

    Boot != OS load after kernel fyi. In the carpc world, boot means the time from when you turn the key or hit the button, to the time music is playing, the OS is lag-free, and it's considered running. This is one thing that seriously irks me about your boot time posts.

    Also "every country in the world" is a pointless comment, since you can do that in windows too using the exact same software you do in linux if you so wish.
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  9. #19
    One Sharp Cheddar ThunderStick's Avatar
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    OK you got me, Im dropping RR and moving to linuxice....
    Sorry, nope not gonna happen.
    The penguin is a scary son of ******
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  10. #20
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    The main thing holding it back is that it isn't dead simple to setup and use because Linux isn't dead simple to use. You know I've been using Linux a lot more lately and I'm not scared of it but MAN is that learning curve steep. It's frankly quite silly to have to memorize hundreds of typewritten commands and options to troubleshoot something in your setup.

    Being a Linux user is like being a Vegan. You have to work at it in order to be one. Most people won't bother because the marginal benefits of Linux aren't worth the switching costs.

    Say what you want about Windows or OS X but they are both simple to use and easy to troubleshoot because there are plenty of resources on the web to use and the gui interface is a much more intuitive tool when you can look at the list of options and check them off, fill in the blank, or click the radio button.

    That doesn't mean LinuxICE can't be successful, though. The TomTom nav system runs on a Linux device and I really like the one that I have. But that's because it just starts and runs properly. If you could make, as another poster suggested, an ISO I could download and run that would boot the system so I could try it without having to switch to Linux, that would be way cool. I'd definitely try it out.

    And I'll sound the plug for my vision of the future of mobile again - one of the reasons that new FE's don't get adopted is precisely because the current ones work well enough. They don't offer something you can't get from an existing FE except for perhaps a very few things that don't offer a compelling enough value proposition to make the change worth it.

    A new approach that distributes the computing across multiple devices both in the car and on the web that leverages connectivity and focuses on location specific applications and situations rather than a pc in the car is something worth putting some time and effort into rather than reinventing the wheel using a different operating system and a more technically elegant approach.

    And there's my .02 worth.
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