can a carputer compete with a head unit for sound quality? - Page 12

Dac · 12-05-2005, 04:33 AM

yes, I am currently using this Sony HU and want to install carputer. Sony has AUX input but I'm wondering how good can analog output of a sondcard be without HU. I know that it's not high-fidelity model but it sounds good enough for me and I wouldn't want to make my system to sound worse. S/PDIF or additional processor are out of question for one and only reason - not enogh cash

so, the plan is to sell my Sony and install the carputer, connect it to the rest of current system - amplifiers for front, rear and subwoofer. that's where high and low pass filters come in question - Sony can cut off frequencies below (for example) 75Hz for front and rear speakers, and above 75Hz for the subwoofer. this feature proved to be very usefull and it's not like it can't be fixed with filters built in amps - but it would be more conveniant to do it with carputer if possible. that's why I ask this questions

I used Audigy as an example of a very popular and somewhat cheap soundcard, and KX drivers supposed to boost it's sound quality and options. don't know if it's true... http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/index.php?skip=1

JasonWW · 12-05-2005, 05:09 AM

The Chaintech would be my choice. You will lose no sound quality at all compared to the Sony HU. Even with really good speakers and a trained ear, the differences would not be noticed by most. So in your case, I'm sure you will like the sound quality of the Chaintech card. Order it online for under $30 USD. Don't bother with a Creative sound card. For so little money, it's not worth the trouble of getting one and then have to get special drivers or other tweaks to try and get better sound from it.

I don't think anyone has been able to configure a x-over through the computer yet. So no, it's not possible (unless you spend thousands of dollars, maybe?). You'll have to use the amp x-overs or you can buy an adjustable active x-over. They don't cost too much, but if the ones in the amps are adjustable, then use them instead.

Dac · 12-05-2005, 05:19 AM

thanx for your answers, you helped me a lot

and as for ordering online - did you see my location?

in some ways it's almost like living in a real 3rd world country here... ordering online costs so much it hurts (taxes and customs) and I can't buy anything on eBay because PayPal isn't working in Croatia. damn

but that's for some other topic...

edit: I just looked at that Chaintec - it uses Envy 24 sound chip, so I guess it would be almost the same if I take a german Terratec soundcard with the same chip. it's more present on our market and everyone says it's far better than Creative. and I already have one in my home PC (currently connected via S/PDIF to a receiver), it really does sound great

JasonWW · 12-05-2005, 06:49 AM

I saw were you lived and figured you would not find it locally.
It uses the Envy 24 HT-S, but it has a not so good DAC for the main 6 channels. Channels 7 & 8 use a much better Wolfson DAC. I don't know if you would hear a difference, but I haven't bothered to check the other 6 channels for their sound quality. Here's a qoute:

Quote:

There isn't much to be found on the card, either; the most obvious part is the large IC in the middle of the board - the 24 bit Envy itself in all its glory. This is the HT-S version, unlike the HT, which can be found on high end gear like M-Audio Revolution. What’s missing, compared to the HT, is hardware downmixing from 5.1 sources to two channel, some input channels (2, instead of 4), and anything more than 20bit/96KHz analog recording. Digital I/O remains the same as the HT with a full 24bit/192KHz capability. Most of that is going to be irrelevant to most users; if you are planning on doing recording work with a PC sound card, your money would be well spent on something more capable than this card. For playback the card has very few drawbacks compared to its more expensive Envy 24HT rivals. Chaintech chose to skimp only in one obvious area; the choice of the standard analog output amp/DAC. The DAC (digital to analog converter) for the main 6 channels is a VIA Vinyl VT1616 model, which limits your output to a maximum of 48KHz and 18 bits. This means is that it does not live up to the lofty numbers printed on the box, and it doesn’t subjectively sound as good as the other two channels Chaintech included for the "rear" speakers to complete the 7.1 specification. The Wolfson 2 channel DAC can handle a high sample rate, capable of a much more robust 192KHz, and full 24 bit resolution. Instead of merely wasting this, it can be selected as the main output to a set of stereo speakers, and you get all the joy that can be found on those much more expensive cards (with two channels - they use more competent DACs for the other 6).

This is why the Chaintech cost $30 USD and the Revolution cards start at $70 USD and go up.

By all means try out any cards you happen to already have. If you think the sound quality is good enough, then use it or buy another just like it. I tried out a Hercules Game Theater XP which ran me about $150 (several years ago). On computer speakers it was fine, but on my high end car system it was definetely not up to my standards, so I got the Chaintech and was very impressed.

Dac · 12-05-2005, 07:12 AM

will do that, thank you

. I'll keep you posted, carputer will be finished soon but I have to wait on my LCD for 2 months or so. hope I'll find a faster way to get it here...

RedGTiVR6 · 12-05-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Dac

hello people, back to the topic please

question: can a carputer with a Creative Audigy or something replace a Sony M8800 headunit without noticeable quality loss?

quite a lot out there will sound better than a sony HU honestly

schreibers · 12-07-2005, 06:32 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Red GTi VR6

quite a lot out there will sound better than a sony HU honestly

Now now

.. Well okay yeah you got me unless you go old school XES or C90/4K combo which could accept a toslink input from a CarPC. Here in the states SQ doesn't sell decks bling does so there has been drop as people aren't willing to throw down like they are elsewhere in the world.

Either way as other people have said yes a CarPC can sound better than a headunit (easier if you stay in the digital realm rather than going analog). I never listen to the radio myself so that's not a concern and as far as music HDD's are cheap so a straight .wav copy or FLAC for compression and you wouldn't lose SQ.

3onDubs · 12-07-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Red GTi VR6

quite a lot out there will sound better than a sony HU honestly

How does using a PC with a DSP and Coax/Optical converter compare to using a HU (assuming all other components are equal)?

RedGTiVR6 · 12-07-2005, 02:37 PM

are you asking me how it sounds or are you being sarcastic?

(on this board it's hard to tell who is being serious and who is interested in just ******* around...lol)

if you're asking how it sounds, see my sig - that should tell you that it sounds pretty darn good

3onDubs · 12-07-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Red GTi VR6

are you asking me how it sounds or are you being sarcastic?

(on this board it's hard to tell who is being serious and who is interested in just ******* around...lol)

if you're asking how it sounds, see my sig - that should tell you that it sounds pretty darn good

Haha...no, I was being serious. I was just asking because I just ordered that Alpine H701 finally and was trying to convince myself that it was worth it. I know that you have a kick-*** system as I've been trying to follow down a similar path (whether or not ill actually ever get there is a different question).

I guess what I was trying to ask was...if you had the same exact setup as you have right now, but with a headunit instead of a pc and dsp, would you be getting similar sound quality or worse? Does the DSP guarantee that I'll get optimal sound?

Also, when I'm using the DSP...that's going to be the only equalizer I'll have to worry about, correct? (instead of using windows software)

JasonWW · 12-07-2005, 07:05 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by 3onDubs

if you had the same exact setup as you have right now, but with a headunit instead of a pc and dsp, would you be getting similar sound quality or worse?

3onDubs, you have to remember that the Alpine DSP unit is an integral part of REDs sound system. The PC portion of Reds car can be replaced with a regular HU and it's analog outputs can feed the Alpine DSP and the sound quality should be the same. If you took away the DSP, what would act as the x-over, what would act as the EQ? You need those parts, they effect the sound quality.

So, did you actually mean to ask that question like you did? I think the better question would be "if you had the same exact setup as you have right now, but with a headunit instead of a pc (only), would you be getting similar sound quality or worse?" leaving the DSP into the rest of the sound system. The answer is yes, it would still sound as good.

I don't think you'll be dissatisfied with that Alpine unit. It's worth the money.

Quote: Originally Posted by 3onDubs

Does the DSP guarantee that I'll get optimal sound?

No, because you will need to make sure it is setup properly. Setting it up can make or break the system. Red and I use the same guy to help tune our systems as he really knows his stuff and has a great ear. Regardless if the source is a HU or PC, the rest of the sound system has to be set up properly and has to be tuned properly. The Alpine unit gives you all the physical tools you need. You just have to know how to use them.

fonseca · 12-07-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by JasonWW

If you took away the DSP, what would act as the x-over, what would act as the EQ?

Even without a DSP, you could still have decent X-over control through most good amps. And a pc can have better EQ control than many head units, especially low end stuff like Sony.

I've been experimenting with the shibatch EQ plugin for Winamp. It's very impressive. And AC3filter/WinampAC3 both have decent EQs, as well as timing adjustment for each channel, which I am still working on. I'm really starting to think a pc can surpass most HUs even for analog when there's nothing between the HU/PC and amp. The only catch would be the low voltage from most soundcards. I had noise when I ran straight to my amps, but then again there was a lot of RCA length between them. Perhaps if the PC is right beside the amp(s), otherwise the signal would need boosting IMO to avoid noise.

And a pc with DSP could sound better than a HU with DSP as well, whether using analog or digital. You can load your hdd with high quality 24 bit music, back up your DVD-A discs, and let either your PC or DSP downmix to 4.1.

3onDubs · 12-08-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by JasonWW

If you took away the DSP, what would act as the x-over, what would act as the EQ? You need those parts, they effect the sound quality.

Good point...That's my mistake, I keep on thinking that the DSP is just a digital sound card with 4V preouts forgetting that its an EQ as well.

Quote:

Setting it up can make or break the system. Red and I use the same guy to help tune our systems as he really knows his stuff and has a great ear. Regardless if the source is a HU or PC, the rest of the sound system has to be set up properly and has to be tuned properly. The Alpine unit gives you all the physical tools you need. You just have to know how to use them.

Yea, I think a major reason that my current analog setup leaves me dissatisfied is because I just can't seem to tune everything right and it gets annoying at times...you have road runner's eq, winamp's eq, and windows eq to name a few. I could never figure out which ones I could leave and which ones I needed to tune, so it always sounded off because of my impatience. I'm assuming that the DSP will replace the need to tune the software...or will the software eq's still need to be tuned?

Quote: Originally Posted by Fonseca

I've been experimenting with the shibatch EQ plugin for Winamp. It's very impressive. And AC3filter/WinampAC3 both have decent EQs, as well as timing adjustment for each channel, which I am still working on.

Your using a DSP, correct? Does this mean that I'd still have to tune my software eq's...?

xfsrg · 12-08-2005, 02:59 PM

Red GTi V6,

ive noticed alot of people dont seem to like the creative soundblaster cards, but I noticed you have one. would you take, for instance, an m-audio card over your current card or is there really not that much difference?

I'm slowly picking out parts, but I cannot decide on a decent card. I read about the chaintech, but for a 4.1 setup wouldnt I need more than just stero for the sub and rear speakers (for surround sound effect in movies)?

Also, prolly dumb question, but one thing i wasnt sure about is when you output from your sound card to the amp. The output from sound card is for both front L/R but the amp hookup is seperate, so how would those two be hooked up? or does it hook up similar to 4.1 pc speakers where L/R get split in the sub?

be gentle.... ive installed head units and speakers in cars before and I can build pcs no problem, but im just tryin to put the two together for the carputer.

3onDubs · 12-08-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by xfsrg

Red GTi V6,

ive noticed alot of people dont seem to like the creative soundblaster cards, but I noticed you have one. would you take, for instance, an m-audio card over your current card or is there really not that much difference?

I'm slowly picking out parts, but I cannot decide on a decent card. I read about the chaintech, but for a 4.1 setup wouldnt I need more than just stero for the sub and rear speakers (for surround sound effect in movies)?

Also, prolly dumb question, but one thing i wasnt sure about is when you output from your sound card to the amp. The output from sound card is for both front L/R but the amp hookup is seperate, so how would those two be hooked up? or does it hook up similar to 4.1 pc speakers where L/R get split in the sub?

be gentle.... ive installed head units and speakers in cars before and I can build pcs no problem, but im just tryin to put the two together for the carputer.

I dont mean to speak on behalf of Red, but I think that in her setup, she uses the digital output of her soundcard to input into the digital sound processor. This processor has the six outputs which go into the amp. So basically only one cable comes from the soundcard. Also, when using digital output, I think that the souncard doesn't really matter...its only when dealing with analog that it really counts.

What you are speaking of is converting the single 3.5mm output of the soundcard into two RCA inputs for your amp. You need to get a converter or a cable that has one male 3.5mm plug on one end and two male RCA plugs on the other end. This cable will split the signal for the front channel into left and right channels, and you can do the same thing for the rear channels.

This sounds complicated, but your question is a relatively newbie-ish question and there are many threads on this topic already...I hope I somewhat answered your question.