Need help tuning (new to active)

ronjon228 · 03-07-2008, 06:45 PM

Well guys, after discussing this a bit with scott_fx I've decided to put up a thread asking for some help from you audiophiles. Basically here's where I sit right now.

My speaker set up is in the my sig for reference.

All my amps are on full range, gains set correctly, and no +/- db or other filters set on the amps.

Running a SB Live OEM card, with Kx drivers and my DSP is as follows...

Right and left front go from the FXBus, to the 10-band EQ, then to a 4th order crossover @ 80Hz, then to a time delay (thesmalldelay) to compensate for the speaker configuration and listening position, then out to the sound card rear outputs.

Right and left rear go from the FXBus to the 10-band EQ and then to a 4th order crossover @ 150Hz, then to the front speaker outputs on the sound card.

The sub channels (right and left) go from the FXBus to the 10-band EQ, to a 4th order crossover @ 80Hz, to a stereo volume (for the sub levels), then to the center/sub output of the sound card.

In summary, I'm using 1 graphical EQ to control all the speakers and right now it's set flat until I get this other stuff sorted out. Then I'm using 3 seperate 4th order crossovers to tune each set of speakers individually. The rear fill is set until it's JUST BARELY even noticeable.

Right now, it sounds great at lower volumes, but as soon as I turn it up it gets distorted in a hurry. Listening to metal (Megadeth, Disturbed, Clutch, Pantera, Tool) is my hardest part to tune. Either the lows overpower and I can't get the highs to compensate, or the highs get too bright and ruin the otherwise good sound.

Also, I'm having a ton of trouble getting my sound stage right. It wants to get behind me. It seems that as soon as I turn on time alignment it pulls the sound back. But when it's off, my left side is way too overpowering. I've tried compensating with balance before, but it really doesn't compare to time alignment. Should I putt my rear speakers, front speakers, and subs on time alignment as well? Or just keep it only on the front speakers?

Also, just need some help with the crossover settings. I'm beginning to think that I won't be getting the sound I want out of 5.25" speakers. They just aren't made to push the kind of volume I listen to. Because, I won't lie, I like it LOUD.

Any suggestions would be greatly, greatly appreciated. I want to get these time alignment and crossover issues fixed up BEFORE I grab a db meter and fix up my EQ and response curve. Is this the wrong way to go about this?

hithere · 03-07-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ronjon228

Well guys, after discussing this a bit with scott_fx I've decided to put up a thread asking for some help from you audiophiles. Basically here's where I sit right now.

My speaker set up is in the my sig for reference.

All my amps are on full range, gains set correctly, and no +/- db or other filters set on the amps.

Running a SB Live OEM card, with Kx drivers and my DSP is as follows...

Right and left front go from the FXBus, to the 10-band EQ, then to a 4th order crossover @ 80Hz, then to a time delay (thesmalldelay) to compensate for the speaker configuration and listening position, then out to the sound card rear outputs.

Right and left rear go from the FXBus to the 10-band EQ and then to a 4th order crossover @ 150Hz, then to the front speaker outputs on the sound card.

The sub channels (right and left) go from the FXBus to the 10-band EQ, to a 4th order crossover @ 80Hz, to a stereo volume (for the sub levels), then to the center/sub output of the sound card.

In summary, I'm using 1 graphical EQ to control all the speakers and right now it's set flat until I get this other stuff sorted out. Then I'm using 3 seperate 4th order crossovers to tune each set of speakers individually. The rear fill is set until it's JUST BARELY even noticeable.

Right now, it sounds great at lower volumes, but as soon as I turn it up it gets distorted in a hurry. Listening to metal (Megadeth, Disturbed, Clutch, Pantera, Tool) is my hardest part to tune. Either the lows overpower and I can't get the highs to compensate, or the highs get too bright and ruin the otherwise good sound.

Also, I'm having a ton of trouble getting my sound stage right. It wants to get behind me. It seems that as soon as I turn on time alignment it pulls the sound back. But when it's off, my left side is way too overpowering. I've tried compensating with balance before, but it really doesn't compare to time alignment. Should I putt my rear speakers, front speakers, and subs on time alignment as well? Or just keep it only on the front speakers?

Also, just need some help with the crossover settings. I'm beginning to think that I won't be getting the sound I want out of 5.25" speakers. They just aren't made to push the kind of volume I listen to. Because, I won't lie, I like it LOUD.

Any suggestions would be greatly, greatly appreciated. I want to get these time alignment and crossover issues fixed up BEFORE I grab a db meter and fix up my EQ and response curve. Is this the wrong way to go about this?

With regard to the timing problem, you're going to want to run those rear channels both about 10-20 ms behind (with greater delay than) everything else...otherwise, they can really separate your front stage and pull things to the back. If they run on a timing plane that's closer to you, it's to be expected that your front stage is screwed up by their presence...your ears are telling your mind that since the sound from the rear gets there first, then the music must be behind you. If you only can get delay on two channels, I'd seriously consider either delaying the rear only, or, if you're a nut for centered vocals, ditching the rear fill altogether. Consider looking up what people are doing with regard to filtering rear fill for frequency. I haven't done it, but I believe that all you need at the back is some midrange for ambiance (bandpass filter for lower voice frequencies only), along with a strong delay to take them completely out of the loop with regard to time-of-arrival location cues. Those PA's aren't gonna mesh well in any case, imho, with those Infinitis. With regard to your output problem, I'd give those pioneers a little more top end, try 100 Hz, or even 120, and set up your front stage accordingly. You're kind of in a bit of a bind when it comes to the 80-200 Hz range with those little 5.25's in the front...Look to tighten up your install up front, make sure they are securely mounted and that your doors are deadened well.

If you're looking to do any equipment additions/replacements on the cheap, I'd find a pair of decent, dedicated midranges and couple them with a set of 8" midbasses up front, and can the "rear fill" altogether...or if you wanna keep the rear fill, put those 5.25"s on duty in the back after you get something more in line with your goals for the front...in fact, if you wanna be really inexpensive about it, then just get the 8"s for the front, and let those infinities pull vocal and above duty only. The type of music you listen to, you're looking for that 100-300 Hz punch in the gut, and you're just not gonna get it with a set of 5.25" playing all the way down to 80Hz...it can be done, but I just haven't heard that size speaker do it without making sacrifices... (I have a hard enough time with my 6"s in this regard).

ronjon228 · 03-07-2008, 08:32 PM

Sounds good, I'll go ahead and try what you said with the frequencies.

Basically what your saying is get some 6.5" midranges, leave my tweets and then grab some 8" midbasses up front? If so, can you give me some good drivers (both the midrange and midbass, 6.5" and 8") on the affordable end of the scale cost wise. I've got no problem with running that kind of setup as I can control all the crossovers directly with Kx.

Again, thanks for the insight. I figured I may be hitting a hardware limitation and it seems it could be the case. I'm going to head to lunch at work so I'll do that and get some tuning in. I'll report back with the results.

hithere · 03-07-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ronjon228

Sounds good, I'll go ahead and try what you said with the frequencies.

Basically what your saying is get some 6.5" midranges, leave my tweets and then grab some 8" midbasses up front?

Not exactly, I was thinking more along the lines of a 3" mid (or, just leaving your 5.25"s to pull duty as a dedicated midrange), then supplementing that with a set of 8"s to get down from the mid to about 40-60 Hz, then letting the subs take over from there. That'll bring the bass up front, give you better staging, and assist with that mid-bass "punch" your music calls for.

In such a setup, you'd have your tweets high-passed at 3-5kHz, your mids playing from ~300Hz-3kHz, your midbasses from ~60Hz-300, and your subs low-passed from ~60 down. In general, if your different speakers are separated by some distance, then you want to lean towards pushing a given speaker in your setup to as low a frequency as possible without sacrificing sound quality, meaning that if your tweets play well nice and low, then you might choose 2.5 or 3K on the high-pass to the tweets rather than 4 or 5k....similarly, if your midbasses can get down to 40 Hz and remain convincing (doubtful for an inexpensive 5-6", more likely for an 8"), you'd probably want to run your subs low-passed at 40 rather than 60. This makes the sub less localizable. If your speakers are spaced rather closely, then you put less emphasis on getting them to play as low as possible, and more on hitting whichever frequencies the speakers are most comfortable at.

There's also an opportunity with a smaller mid to move your vocals to the dash and raise your sound stage, if it needs it.

As far as drivers, do some shopping...I'm good with my own stereo, and I can make general recommendations, but I'm really not experienced enough with different brands to recommend something for your particular install/tastes/budget/car.

scott_fx · 03-07-2008, 09:31 PM

i'm going to go against hithere, since he's new i'd stick with a simpler two way with either a 7" or 8". and a tweeter that can match up with it

hithere · 03-07-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by scott_fx

i'm going to go against hithere, since he's new i'd stick with a simpler two way with either a 7" or 8". and a tweeter that can match up with it

I'd definitely agree with that, from the standpoint of keeping things simple, if he didn't already have some investment in those speakers and at least an understanding of how to set up his crossovers and operate time alignment. If he were asking for a set for a brand new install, then I'd align with the above.

Ronjon, if you give a good listen to speakers you are considering for purchase, plan your install spatially, and stick with the manufacturer's recommendations for crossover frequency, I think you'll be just fine.

ronjon228 · 03-07-2008, 10:31 PM

Well hit, you've definitely helped me so far. I've moved my crossover points to 100Hz HP on the components and 100Hz LP on the subwoofers. Sounds much better already.

I've got some delay on the front left speaker to bring the two fronts to a nice center stage.

Should I put some time alignment on the subs or not?

For now, with the 100Hz crossover I'm very happy. Just need to know about time alignment for the subs.

I already set my DSP up for the rears. Made a mono mix of them and also put a crossover on there set for LP at 400Hz to supplement my midbass. Set up the time delay for 12.75ms. I've been contemplating omitting them, but if I can get them in and sound good, I'll leave them. Is this the right way to do rear fill or should have have them on the HP crossover? Seems that when I put them on HP or full range they are just want to pull the sound stage back horribly.

ronjon228 · 03-08-2008, 01:10 AM

Wow, just drove home with the new setup and I must say, what a difference. Amazing. Thanks so much for everything so far guys. Here's what I finished off with. Let me know how it sounds.

First, my fronts are crossed over at 110Hz. They just can't handle anything lower on loud volume levels. The delay is still in place for the left side, I believe set at 30 samples, or around .5ms. Seems too little if I measured it out, but it sounds perfect like that.

My subs are on a LP crossover at 90Hz. Then delayed by 12.5ms. I realize this leaves a small gap between the subs and the fronts, but I just can't get the fronts any lower, and don't like hearing too high of frequencies from the subs.

So, I decided to use my rear to fill in the gap. I have my rear 6.5's crossed over at a LP frequency of 110Hz. They are then turned up ONLY enough to fill in the gap and really not be audible at all. They are also delayed at 10.5ms.

So far so good. Any suggestions before I grab a meter and start db testing frequencies? So far the only thing I really don't like is my highs. Too bright near the top of the Hz scale, but this can be fixed with a properly tuned EQ I would think.

hithere · 03-08-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ronjon228

Wow, just drove home with the new setup and I must say, what a difference. Amazing. Thanks so much for everything so far guys. Here's what I finished off with. Let me know how it sounds.

First, my fronts are crossed over at 110Hz. They just can't handle anything lower on loud volume levels. The delay is still in place for the left side, I believe set at 30 samples, or around .5ms. Seems too little if I measured it out, but it sounds perfect like that.

My subs are on a LP crossover at 90Hz. Then delayed by 12.5ms. I realize this leaves a small gap between the subs and the fronts, but I just can't get the fronts any lower, and don't like hearing too high of frequencies from the subs.

So, I decided to use my rear to fill in the gap. I have my rear 6.5's crossed over at a LP frequency of 110Hz. They are then turned up ONLY enough to fill in the gap and really not be audible at all. They are also delayed at 10.5ms.

So far so good. Any suggestions before I grab a meter and start db testing frequencies? So far the only thing I really don't like is my highs. Too bright near the top of the Hz scale, but this can be fixed with a properly tuned EQ I would think.

Well, it sounds like you've come a long way toward achieving your goals...I'd give the subs a try at 110 as a means to eliminate that gap, they might just do better than those PA's. Also, since the subs are likely to be the furthest speaker from the front, and they aren't playing frequencies in common with the front, I'd try setting TA on them to 0, then aligning everything else to them. The subs don't really have a great amount to do with the directionality of your front stage, but by using TA, you can avoid out-of-phase arrivals from the subs from negatively impacting the smooth bass response you're after.

Try this: Measure the distance between your subs and the driver's seat. Next, measure the distance between the next farthest speaker in your setup (probably something on the passenger side) and the driver's seat. The difference between these two distances will correspond to an amount of delay it will take to align your other speakers to the sub's. Use whatever distance calc to determine how to convert between this distance and a time delay to add to the rest of your speakers...just add that to your existing delay on each channel. This should work to fill in your bass a little better, and bring the subs more to the front in terms of localization.

ronjon228 · 03-08-2008, 04:48 PM

You know, I never thought of using my subs as the reference point for the time alignment. However, now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense. So let me lay this out to make sure I understand correctly.

From what I understand, ~1ms = 1' or .073ms = 1" in time delay.

So I'll measure all the speakers. Here's what we'll use. FR, FL = front right and front left. S = Subs.

Here is my distances measured in inches.

S = 70
FR = 33
FL = 48

I then use the subs as reference and subtract the other speakers from this. So my measurements for delay distance (DD) equals S - X (where X is the speaker I'm figuring).

DDFR = 22
DDFL = 37

So my delay distances are now figured and I can apply the .073 ms delay for each inch by using this formula: D (delay) = DD (delay distance) x .073 (ms).

DFR = 1.606ms
DFL = 2.701ms

I'll go ahead and test this out today and let you know how it works out. Seems solid. I'm sure I can fine tune it if need be to bring the sound stage back up front by lowering the front delays. Thanks for the tip man!

ronjon228 · 03-11-2008, 04:22 PM

I now officially wish I never would had learned a thing about tuning in a car environment. No matter what I do, I can't get it right. I never realized how horribly bad the sound fields are in a moving vehicle until now. Aye...

I have my time alignment set based on my measurements and that part works great. However, the car is absolutely killing my frequency response from right to left side. The main problem, of which I can't do anything about, is my leg. It baffles the left woofer so much that I really can't get the sound stage right no matter what I do. The 1k to 4k range is way too heavy on the right side, and the 4k and up is too bright on the left side. No matter what I do, I can't find a happy medium.

So here's what I'm thinking. Should I run a stereo EQ and try to smooth things out? Or am I simply out of luck with the horrible configuration of my speakers and the way they interact with my limbs? I realize tuning a stereo EQ becomes even more difficult than tuning a mono EQ, but am willing to give it a shot if it works. Question is this... can I still use the DB meter to tune each side individually, or is this not advisable?

Right now, I'm pretty much 100% fed up with tuning and really just want to ENJOY listening to the music rather than getting ****ed off because my sound stage is screwy. Not a happy camper.

Edit: I just had an idea that may sort out my issues. Here's the plan:

1) Put my right side tweeter back on the normal setting. Then, leave my left side tweeter on the -3db setting. This should sure up my high end response from the right side.

2) EQ my left side and bump up the 1k-4k range to bring it even with the right side. Note: I already tried to EQ the right side and lower the 1k-4k range, but I'm not having much luck doing so. Seems that I have to adjust way too much in the -db settings to get it right.

hithere · 03-11-2008, 05:57 PM

....this is why they say, "Get the install right before TA/EQ"

I'd play with the levels before messing around with EQ...and no, it's not a good idea to EQ with one side or another turned off, mainly because you don't know what the effects of comb filtering and the like will be without both speakers firing. Best thing you could do, tho, is find a new place for those tweets and mids.

ronjon228 · 03-11-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by hithere

....this is why they say, "Get the install right before TA/EQ"

When you say "get the install right" what exactly are you referring too? Should I be re-locating my drivers in the door so they aren't obstructed by my extremity's? Confused by exactly what you mean.

ronjon228 · 03-12-2008, 01:28 AM

Well, for the first time in about a week (a little before I started this thread) I was officially able to ENJOY my music on the way home from work tonight/this morning. I ended up putting the right side tweet on the regular setting, while left side tweet is on -3db. This brightened up the highs on the right side. I then made a volume control is Kx DSP for the right side only and turned it down to about 65-70%.

The combination of the louder highs (from the x-over setting) and louder high end of the midbass (which was already there), allows me to use the volume control on the right side, to balance everything out perfectly. I just basically used a combination of time alignment and actual driver/tweeter balance to find the sweet spot. I can now officially say I've found it, and love it.

I do have one last question. My subs, while sounding much more "front" staged are still sort of pulling the bass behind me. I'm guessing this is mainly due to the small 5.25's in the front not being able to compensate. However, if I wanted to adjust time alignment to bring the subs a little farther forward, how would I do so? Raise the delay in the fronts, or lower it?

hithere · 03-12-2008, 08:37 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by ronjon228

I do have one last question. My subs, while sounding much more "front" staged are still sort of pulling the bass behind me. I'm guessing this is mainly due to the small 5.25's in the front not being able to compensate. However, if I wanted to adjust time alignment to bring the subs a little farther forward, how would I do so? Raise the delay in the fronts, or lower it?

One of the symptoms of having your subs crossed over at a frequency higher than 60Hz is going to be the ability of your ears to locate some of the higher frequencies the subs are handling in your setup. You have to make the choice between handing those freqs to the sub for better frequency response, or having your mids handle them for better staging...welcome to car audio, where there are nearly always such compromises, just due to the nature of the environment. In your case, I don't think that additional TA is going to help you.