Dercas

My setup:
Deck - Pioneer Premier DEH-P400UB
Subs -Two Pioneer Premier 12" Champion Series PRO Subwoofers with 3000 Watts Max. Power Wired at 4ohms 600watt RMS (each)
I can't exactly remember the mids and highs, but I know I have two pioneer premier 6x9's and two 5 1/4" components. (can't remember the wattage exactly)

Pioneer 4-Channel Power Amplifier with 600 Watts Max. Power (hooked to mids and highs)
Pioneer Premier™ PRS-Series Class-D Mono Amplifier with 1200 Watts Max Power Two of these one to each sub
Tsunami 5 Farad Capacitor
Planet Audio Two channel line driver (8v output)

Here is my problem: (lights dimming now)
I have a 95' Ford Taurus 3.0L V6, comes stock with a 130 amp alternator. I also upgraded my battery when I got my system to the Optima red top battery.
When I got my system everything was fine, I've had it for almost a year. It is setup to where I put the volume at 48-50ish is perfect. When I have it there my lights dimmed a little bit, but I'd have to really look for it to notice. (which wasn't a problem)

However the past month or two my lights have been dimming a lot. They are even starting to dim when my volume is at 35. (and they dim more at volume 35 now than they did when my volume was at 48 or 50 a few months ago).

So I had some things tested, I thought it was finally my alternator going out (since it's still the stock one). Autozone had tested everything didn't say anything was wrong, then checker tested stuff said the battery was putting out 300ish cold cranking amps when it's supposed to be putting out 800 minium. They said the battery it self was fine but the alternator wasn't charging it like it should. Which after driving it I noticed the lights dimming more and more and having to lower my volume down to like 25-30 to avoid dimming. So I figured he was correct, and my alternator is slowly going out and my battery is taking up the slack.

Now to make this long story a bit shorter:

I replaced the alternator (after market 130amp (highest I could get))- No change
Had a battery store test my battery and alternator (they were both fine (even my old alternator))
I had the audio store that installed my system check the cap, everything seems to be fine, displays 14.5v, around 12ish when the volumes all the way up, and it's also displaying the output it's giving to the amps. (ranging anywhere from 0-110 amps average is around 40-50 though)
So I thought maybe it was wiring, just did the Big 3 upgrade, 2 gauge welding cable, also no change.

Now the last option I can think of is the alternator (this is what every store is telling me, I need more power) But my issue with that is, how come when I got it a year ago, with the stock alternator, my lights hardly dimmed at all. (with the exact same setup, in fact minus the big 3 upgrade) and now it's all the sudden worse than it's ever been. (Even with the new alternator that I still have in there currently)

Nobody has yet to answer that question, they just say there is not enough input power to supply everything. If that really is the problem I will get a HO alternator (which I planned on doing when I first got my system).. Money is tight right now though, and I don't want to buy a HO alternator and for some reason have the same problem.

It would be appreciated if someone could explain why it's dimming now, and wasn't before with the same amp alternator, and if in fact I do need to upgrade to a HO alternator. Also if I do need to upgrade how much amps will be enough? (keep in mind a little dimming isn't a problem, like it was originally, but when it's dimming to about half the brightness, that is. It is also not JUST my headlights that dim either, my clock inside my car dims, my capacitor in the trunk also dims, pretty much any light source (I haven't noticed my deck dimming though))

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Bugbyte

I'm not car audio guru but just a quick power calculation shows you are either right on the edge of the max power or over it.

First, let's calculate the max wattage your alternator can put out. The formula for that is Watts = Volts X Amps. Your alternator is 130 amps and generally puts out around 14.5 volts at best. 14.5 X 130 = 1885 watts.

Of course, that would be best performance. Wiring has resistance in it and your alternator probably doesn't put out the whole 130 amps. If the voltage you are seeing is down to just 12 volts, you get a 1560 watts power budget for your car.

Your stereo is rated at 1200 + 600 watts = 1800 watts total. You only play it at half volume. Half power would be 900 watts. I don't know if it would be more or less than 900 at half volume, but let's assume it is less, about 800 watts.

That leaves you 1560 - 800 = 760 watts to run your car. That includes providing the ignition, electronics, heater/fan, lights, and of course, charging your battery.

It certainly sounds like you don't have enough power for your system. I didn't see where you replaced your battery. That means it is an old component in a system that draws a lot of power. Maybe it doesn't charge up as high as it used to and can't supply the power it used to, thus the lights dim quite a bit. Even though it tests within limits, it sounds like it may simply be older.

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Maheriano

Easy.....if you have a capacitor, you need a high output alternator. They're garbage, dump it.

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iamgnat

BugByte's conversions are probably a good rule of thumb and I suspect he is overall correct, but I would suggest doing the math the opposite direction to determine what the max draw your system (including headunit and/or PC) is. You should then be able to get the various draw values for the car itself (e.g. no accessories/lights on and everything on). Then you'll know exactly how close to the line you are. I've always been told that you want at least a 10% buffer between what you need and what the Alt can put out.

As far as why is it all of a sudden having issues.

Have your driving habits changed recently (shorter trips, most of the driving on cold nights, etc..)? Short trips won't let the Alt recharge the battery (especially if you are already close to peak anyway) after the draw from starting it and if you are also now running your heat/lights/etc.. more often that won't help the situation.

Have you checked your belts? A poorly adjusted belt could cause the Alt to not perform up to specs all the time.

Something else could have failed/be failing that is causing the issue. Finding out what the car's draw is supposed to be will help with this as you'll be able to test to see if it is drawing more than it should.

Plug warning: If you decide to go with a HO Alt, talk to Nathan at http://excessiveamperage.com/. He is a great guy and has an excellent reputation. Unfortunately i'm about to install my second Alt from him, but I highly doubt it is because of any manufacturing problem. Nathan has been great helping me through the pain of replacing my Alt (again) by giving me a great deal on the new one.

I just hope Ford put your Alt in a better place than they did on the Escape. Bastards!!!

-dave

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AudioXtreme

Your battery acts like a reservoir for your charging system. After cranking mucho amps into your starter to get your engine started it would normally settle back and let the alternator take over supplying power to the system. At the same time your alternator would be recharging your battery for the next time it's needed to crank up again.

Your battery is rated on how many times it can do this time after time before falling to a point where it cannot hold a charge as well as it did before, also known as your battery service life.

When the electrical system needs a little more omph that the alternator can't handle then the battery will provide the little extra juice needed to keep things running smoothly. But if your alternator is consistantly not providing enough for your electrical needs then the battery starts to slowly get depleted since the alternator isn't providing enough power to supply the system and recharge your battery. In other words, dimming lights.

I think that is what happened to your alternator, it wasn't providing enough juice to keep everything powered up and happy and so your battery had to provide that extra little omph.

At first, since your battery was still new, it had enough reserve to keep everything happy. Eventually, this depleted your battery to the point that it actually decreased the service life of your battery. Basically you went from 800 cold cranking amps to only 300.

When you got a new alternator, you should have replaced the battery as well since even if your alternator could supply the entire system it still could not fully recharge your depleted battery. When you get a new alternator think about replacing your battery as well.

I think at least a 190 amp alternator would be the very minimum I would look at. Depending on your driving habits, short trips, heaters/AC use, etc you might need something much bigger.

Also being an Optima battery, you might try using a trickle charger to see if it will charge back up completely but I doubt it since it never ever really got completly recharged in the first place. A new battery is basically moot though if you don't get an HO alternator for your system soon.

Hope this helps...

Dercas

Thanks a lot for all the replies. Just to answer a few things. My driving habits did change a little while ago (like a month and a half before this started happening). I drive a lot more at night and long distances, such as 85ish miles round trip. (it is on the freeway though so I would have thought it was charging my battery enough) and It's 3 days a week. I do have my stereo, lights and heater on as well though. So that very well could be a problem, didn't even realize that.

Also with the battery thing, that is what I suspected to be the problem. See before I made all these changes, checker was the place that told me about my battery being at 300 cold cranking amps. Also when my equipment was all in use, my voltage dropped down below 12v so he said that the alternator was going out. He also said the battery was fine, and once you get a new alternator it will charge the battery back up and it should be ok.

So when I got the new alternator (thinking the battery was at 300 cold cranking amps or less by now) I put a battery charger on it. It was only on for less than 10 mins and it said it was fully charged. Now I was confused why that'd be if it was so low earlier, I was afraid the battery was bad. I then took it to a battery store to see if it was dead or not (rather than back to checker or autozone). He tested the battery and he said it's just fine, it was putting out over 900 cold cranking amps, and he said he didn't know what the checker guy was talking about. That is when they also tested my old alternator and everything saying it was also just fine. (reading showed over 14v)

I think all of you guys are correct though. With my driving habits changing, and now over a year my battery just isn't able to keep up the slack for the alternator anymore, and the capacitor may even be causing more of a problem now than helping. I am going to get a highoutput alternator for sure, (and probably a battery as well) but before I do that (since I can't afford them now anyway) I am going to go to the car audio place that installed everything and have them unhook the capacitor and see if it makes any change at all.

Thanks again for all your help.

-Cody

HyperZulu

New alternator and no change? Check your fuses. All of them. Make sure they are in the right spots and not burnt out. There is no reason why a new alternator is not recharging your battery or supplying enough electricity at minimal draw. Check your fuses.

ejreams

Have you talked to anyone about looking into a capacitor?

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urbex

As others have said, battery needs to be replaced. When the cranking amps have dropped, that generally means resistance inside the battery has increased (in your case, a lot).

The other big things to check are the ground cables to/from the battery, engine, and chassis. Assuming you're on the original cables as they from the factory, you're talking about 18 year old cabling. If you're in an environment that sees a lot of moisture, or worse - salt, your cables will be corroding on the inside. Problem is with newer style cables (pretty much anything after the mid 80's), it's not always obvious from the outside. Recently went through this with my Dad's '95 Ranger. Thought the starter went dead, so we replaced it. Still no go. Replaced battery and cleaned all the connections...nothing. He was sure the cables where fine because they looked clean. I cut the connector off the battery end of the positive cable, and sure enough - it was the classic crusty green of corroded copper. Replaced the cables, and it fired right up.

I'm not familiar with the setup of the Taurus, but I'd assume the alternator is grounded through the bracket attached to the engine, and the engine is grounded to the chassis via a ground strap (looks like a flat braided cable). In my personal setups, I always run a heavy gauge ground cable (min 8 gauge, although I'll typically run 4 gauge) straight from the alternator's case to the negative terminal of the battery, as well as a heavy gauge power cable from the terminal on the alternator to the positive on the battery. This eliminates the problems associated with mutiple connections to the battery (case to bracket, bracket to engine, engine to braid, braid to chassis, chassis to battery, consolidating it to just case to battery). The factory can get away with a much smaller wire, and poorer grounding as the alternator typically is only running high load for a few minutes following the engine starting, not constantly pushing a high load as is required with a high powered stereo system.

Of course, make sure all your stereo related connections are good and tight. I'd recommend against the typical set screw ran down on bare cable method, and prefer that all cables get terminated with ring terminals, and properly secured on studs.

Bugbyte

Reread post number 1. He has a capacitor.

Caps don't help if your alternator can't supply all the juice you need. They have to be charged from somewhere - namely the alternator, or if the alternator can't do it, it draws from the battery. If that draw takes place repeatedly, the battery gets drawn down.

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Dercas

Yeah I have a capacitor, I never did get it checked out fully yet. To urbex: I did the "big 3" upgrade already. Which is alternator power wire to the battery, the battery to chassis ground, and chassis to engine ground. I thought it was the problem as well, but when I added the wiring it made no change.

Ultimately regardless of what I change, I will need a bigger alternator and I know that now. One thing that I have noticed recently though, that I think can be explained by the capacitor not working correctly (correct me if I am wrong).

What used to happen is my lights would dim very little with the first initial bass hit, and brighten back up. (Even if the bass was still going on (this was at volume 48)). The bass would stop, and the lights would stay bright, until the initial bass hit again. What is happening now is a lot different.

At times my lights may not even dim to the bass correctly, if that makes sense. For example, what it does now is dims with the initial bass hit, and if it's continuous bass it stays dim. After the bass stops it will brighten back up (as it's not requiring as much power) then for some reason it dims and instantly re-brightens (with no bass hits). And it does that constantly so if you imagine it doing that with almost every bass hit, my lights wouldn't appear to be dimming correctly to the bass. Which makes me believe that something is drawing that power that shouldn't be. Keep in mind this is at volume 40 now. I have been keeping my volume at 34-35 to avoid my lights dimming, until I can get an HO alternator.

My only issue in thinking the battery is not working correctly is that only one location has tested it and said it was putting out 300 cranking amps. The other two locations I had test it, one being a battery shop, said the battery was just fine putting out over 900. (but as mentioned before just because it tested within limits doesn't mean for 100% that everything with it is fine).

I think the capacitor is causing a problem, so I do need to still have that looked at more in depth. Last time they just looked at it and saw the LCD display readings were fine and said everything else was fine. (Which may be the case) but if my capacitor has gone bad I don't want to get an HO alternator without knowing for sure everything else is working properly.

I do appreciate the feedback, I will for sure post back here once the issue is resolved and explain what finally fixed it. If anyone has any other ideas that haven't been mentioned already please let me know.

Thanks again,

-Cody

iamgnat

The lights dimming effect can still happen with a Cap if it hasn't been able to recharge by the time you need it again as it is only meant to see you through the slow response of your battery while the Alt catches up with the demand. If everything is functioning properly and you aren't close to overloading, then the Cap prevents the dim effect. If on the other hand something is bad, then the Cap will at best hide the problem and at worst make it worse (e.g. one more then demanding power from a maxed system).

As far as seeing dimming when there aren't bass hits, if you are running close to peak from the Alt it doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong. It could be some other normal (and properly functioning) feature kicking in (A/C compressor for defroster, cooling fans for the engine, etc..) that may be kicking on and pushing it over the limit.


While it is possible that there is something wrong with the Cap, I would guess there isn't. That said, taking it out *could* show some minor improvement which is just a matter of simply removing a draw from your system.

-dave

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Dercas

Hey guys, I haven't gotten my capacitor tested just yet, but I wanted to ask your input on this:

I thought it'd be worth trying to hook up another vehicle to mine (with jumper cables) and see if it made some difference, or fixed the problem. I would think it would have helped a little at least.. But it didn't.. It made absolutely no change.. I did it at night so I could tell even if there is a slight change, and at volume 36 it dimmed. The EXACT same as it did without the jumper cables.

The truck I hooked up with only had a 60 amp alternator, but with my 130 it would be 190 right? At least close to that considering whatever amperage the truck needed.. So am I wrong? Or is something else the problem here? He just had his truck running, no lights heater or anything, it's a 77 chevy truck, so it has nothing else really to run. We also tried higher rpms on both my car and his truck. Still made seriously zero change.. I don't understand why it wouldn't at least help a little bit. Any more input would be helpful, the car audio place that hooked my system up isn't being very helpful, which is why I haven't had my cap tested yet.

Thanks in advance for any input.

-Cody

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