Help on speaker setup, PLEASE!!!!!!!! - Page 3

HiJackZX1 · 07-10-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by soundman98

they should pair up perfectly with the pdx 4.100.

rms/max extremely simplified(there is more to figuring out these numbers than this, but for comparison purposes, these are the general rules):

rms is the max wattage the speaker can take for a really long time
max is the wattage that it can only take for very brief times, otherwise it will blow.

AHHHHHHH, ok got it. That was easy. So if the PDX puts out 100 RMS, then these speakers taking up to 150 RMS will be more then fine.

I have never ever heard of this brand though. I hear they make good home theater speakers too. The pricing is way lower then Alpine.

HiJackZX1 · 07-10-2009, 01:43 PM

Also since you know alot about this stuff, what is the difference between these two sets?

http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductC...&idproduct=550

http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductC...&idproduct=551

soundman98 · 07-10-2009, 02:18 PM

Caution: wrote a whole book and generalized 3-way setups! There is no standard 3-way setup...

Quote: Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

Also since you know alot about this stuff, what is the difference between these two sets?

http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductC...&idproduct=550

http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductC...&idproduct=551

i have been told that candence stuff is good, but have never heard it, so i can't say how good it is...

both of the items you linked to are very close, the biggest difference is the overall setup-- the second one is a 3 way component set-- it uses a 6" midbass, a 2" silk dome mid and a inverted titanium dome tweeter-- similar(don't expect the same quality though) to focal speakers

personally, i don't like metal dome tweeters, of any brand, and prefer silk dome tweeters. so to take my advise for, or against any speaker could force you into getting something that you don't like. i really hate giving speaker recomendations anywhere, because everyone has different musical tastes and expectations.

i figure the best i can do is to provide the info on why certain speakers sound the way they do, so everyone can make a (slightly more)educated descision.

the general ideas(again there is more to it than this, but it is a general idea) behind using a 3 way design is mostly to try to fill in the gaps of larger speakers--example: a 8" mid woofer is not going to be able to reproduce all frequencies all the way to a tweeters crossover point(usually around 2khz), so you would use a smaller mid(usually 4-5" size) to fill in where the 8" leaves off, and then the tweeter takes over after that.

there are also 3 way designs that are setup to give the standard vocal range of singers to one specific speaker to try to minimize the effect of more than one source for the persons voice. and crossing over to a different speaker in the middle of teh vocal range can tend to add/remove certain, key things from the details of a singer.

the candence unit looks like it falls in between both of these designs-- it is using a 6" midwoofer that utilizes a larger voicecoil for better midbass response, and the 2" mid is to give slightly better clarity in most critical area.

some of the 3 way designs that i have heard tend to add to much midrange, and can fool you into thinking that the singers voice is deeper than it really is, which can give a false sense of realism.

it also adds a 3 driver to a already complex setup-- if you though it was hard enough to add 2 drivers and get everyhing to line up properly, now you will have a 3rd that will handle +/-50% of the voice, and you must line that up just as carefuly as the other drivers...

again, this is a internet forum, and i could have all my info completly wrong-if anyone notices any problems with it, feel free to correct me (after all, thats how we learn) and remember to listen at your on risk.

HiJackZX1 · 07-10-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by soundman98

Caution: wrote a whole book and generalized 3-way setups! There is no standard 3-way setup...

i have been told that candence stuff is good, but have never heard it, so i can't say how good it is...

both of the items you linked to are very close, the biggest difference is the overall setup-- the second one is a 3 way component set-- it uses a 6" midbass, a 2" silk dome mid and a inverted titanium dome tweeter-- similar(don't expect the same quality though) to focal speakers

personally, i don't like metal dome tweeters, of any brand, and prefer silk dome tweeters. so to take my advise for, or against any speaker could force you into getting something that you don't like. i really hate giving speaker recomendations anywhere, because everyone has different musical tastes and expectations.

i figure the best i can do is to provide the info on why certain speakers sound the way they do, so everyone can make a (slightly more)educated descision.

the general ideas(again there is more to it than this, but it is a general idea) behind using a 3 way design is mostly to try to fill in the gaps of larger speakers--example: a 8" mid woofer is not going to be able to reproduce all frequencies all the way to a tweeters crossover point(usually around 2khz), so you would use a smaller mid(usually 4-5" size) to fill in where the 8" leaves off, and then the tweeter takes over after that.

there are also 3 way designs that are setup to give the standard vocal range of singers to one specific speaker to try to minimize the effect of more than one source for the persons voice. and crossing over to a different speaker in the middle of teh vocal range can tend to add/remove certain, key things from the details of a singer.

the candence unit looks like it falls in between both of these designs-- it is using a 6" midwoofer that utilizes a larger voicecoil for better midbass response, and the 2" mid is to give slightly better clarity in most critical area.

some of the 3 way designs that i have heard tend to add to much midrange, and can fool you into thinking that the singers voice is deeper than it really is, which can give a false sense of realism.

it also adds a 3 driver to a already complex setup-- if you though it was hard enough to add 2 drivers and get everyhing to line up properly, now you will have a 3rd that will handle +/-50% of the voice, and you must line that up just as carefuly as the other drivers...

again, this is a internet forum, and i could have all my info completly wrong-if anyone notices any problems with it, feel free to correct me (after all, thats how we learn) and remember to listen at your on risk.

I didnt realize it was a 3 way setup.... i though it was a 2-way, that shows how much attention I actually pay. They have another speaker in the series but it looks like a monster. http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductC...&idproduct=235.

I also like these and seem to be able to find them easily. Only thing is they handle exactly 100 RMS, which is what the amps put out also. I wanted to have the speakers rated alittle higher, just in case. Am I being to anal though? Should I just get 100 RMS speakers for the 100 RMS rate amp?

Here is a link to those speakers. http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductC...&idproduct=231 The frequenct response doesnt seem to be as good though.

digital79 · 07-10-2009, 04:49 PM

That first set plays from 35Hz? Don't know about that.... you won't get any reasonable output of sub-woofer frequencies out of a 6.5" woofer @ 35Hz.

I would not base my decision on that 35Hz at all, especially with that rubber surround not looking like a long-throw.

I can't say nothing about Cadence, no experience with it, but again, just because they say it plays from 35Hz, it doesn't mean you will get good sound at that 35Hz. Most people play their woofers from 80Hz, and when people have them professionally installed in custom boxes, they may play them from 50Hz. So don't pick a set because they say it plays that low. It may, but not at reasonable loudness.

As for RMS rating, it's better to have amp with greater RMS rating from a speaker, since woofers need more power to play lower frequencies, as the impedance of the speaker changes, depending on frequency it is playing. I have 80W RMS speakers hooked up to 300W amp, no problems at all. Actually, the sound quality is better now, before they were running of 150W. Just don't play sub-woofer frequencies with them, that may kill them.

Sponge · 07-10-2009, 05:31 PM

All the feedback this far has been excellent.

Quote: Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

I also like these and seem to be able to find them easily. Only thing is they handle exactly 100 RMS, which is what the amps put out also. I wanted to have the speakers rated alittle higher, just in case. Am I being to anal though? Should I just get 100 RMS speakers for the 100 RMS rate amp?

Unless you listen to continuous low frequency pure sine waves at a nearly clipping amplitude, don't get too mixed up in the RMS thing. Treat it as more of a suggestion than a requirement and don't let it deter you from buying the speakers you want.

If you cant mount your tweeters on axis (pointing at your head) in the kick panels, I would not put them there... I would have them on the dash. Second and third row seating would be fine with coaxials.

soundman98 · 07-10-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by digital79

That first set plays from 35Hz? Don't know about that.... you won't get any reasonable output of sub-woofer frequencies out of a 6.5" woofer @ 35Hz.

I would not base my decision on that 35Hz at all, especially with that rubber surround not looking like a long-throw.

I can't say nothing about Cadence, no experience with it, but again, just because they say it plays from 35Hz, it doesn't mean you will get good sound at that 35Hz. Most people play their woofers from 80Hz, and when people have them professionally installed in custom boxes, they may play them from 50Hz. So don't pick a set because they say it plays that low. It may, but not at reasonable loudness.

As for RMS rating, it's better to have amp with greater RMS rating from a speaker, since woofers need more power to play lower frequencies, as the impedance of the speaker changes, depending on frequency it is playing. I have 80W RMS speakers hooked up to 300W amp, no problems at all. Actually, the sound quality is better now, before they were running of 150W. Just don't play sub-woofer frequencies with them, that may kill them.

good points.

the freq response is 'supposed to be'(some manufacturers have different standards though) the -3db down points of the system. edit: after thinking about it, i believe that it is either -3 or -6db, but can't remember, so don't take this as a definate...

the speakers do have a 3" voice coil though, so i say that they will be albe to play it-- for referance look at morel's supremo midwoofers-- the 6.5" is listed as having a usable range from 25-5000hz and also has a 3" voice coil, and costs wayyy to much

. but its fs(free air resonance) is listed at 62hz, meaning you would probably cross the speaker over at about 75-80hz(to keep away from any resonance peaks). without seeing a datasheet for the other ones(), we are only guessing at what to cross them over at.

morel listing:
http://www.morelhifi.com/products/mo...s_supremo.html

now, it is the end of friday, and i need to get home to continue my build and too many other projects-- everyone have a good weekend!

Sponge · 07-10-2009, 08:29 PM

Haha, I thought those Cadence mids looked familiar!
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ce-cvl-6k.html

nalav · 07-11-2009, 12:04 AM

You generally don't need to concern yourself with the peak power. Get amps and speakers that are rated for close to the same RMS and you'll be fine.

HiJackZX1 · 07-11-2009, 02:13 PM

OK..... So 100 RMS speakers will be fine. I did decide to do some reading since I had to work Saturday morning and from 2-4pm its dead. What I read is that alot of times companies will make Coaxials really cheap and thats why components are better. They say though that if you get a good pair of coaxials that they can actually sound better then components because all the sound is coming from the same area. Components will sound awkward if the tweeter and component are not installed correctly. So they recommend using coaxials that have a separate crossover. Does this information sound accurate? I guess I just really don't want to deal with separates, and I see high end coaxials even have the ability to aim the tweeter in the desired direction. They are pricey, but about the same as good components.

digital79 · 07-11-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

Components will sound awkward if the tweeter and component are not installed correctly. So they recommend using coaxials that have a separate crossover. Does this information sound accurate?

Yes, by going with coaxials you eliminate issues created by separation of woofer and tweeter by a large distance.

By having an external crossover with coaxials, that means it most likely the crossover has a steeper slope (as opposed to a single capacitor on the tweeter), thus making the speaker more advanced and most likely tuned better.

You can get a decent SQ with coaxials by all means.

However, one of the advantages of going with components, it that you can mix and match drivers (woofer you like, tweeter you like), as well as create a very good 3-way setups (3 way + sub that is). However, those are very difficult to tune. Also, you can choose high end components, costing over $200 per item. And you can exchange individual component, if you don't like its characteristics.

But that makes things very complicated and time consuming. Coaxials make things much easier.

HiJackZX1 · 07-11-2009, 05:17 PM

That is kind of what I am leaning towards. The tweeter placement is driving me crazy and the fact that the speakers wont match drives me crazy. I really want the center to be coaxial, so me being all weird, want the doors to look similar also. I figure that if I go all coaxial it will still sound good as long as I don't go for some $h!++y brand. I really don't think I will need to mix and match stuff. As long as everything works and it sounds good, I'm done. Also I wanted to show this car, but not really for pro audio, just that a CAR PC can do more then anything else and sound awesome too. Also a 100 RMS coaxial is still pretty loud, right?

HiJackZX1 · 07-11-2009, 09:26 PM

See this were my brain starts to hope around. I am just battling back and forth on components and coaxials........... I want it to sound best (component) but I hate all the extra stuff. Also the time delay I keep reading everywhere is killing me. Why do I have to over think things so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jake789 · 07-12-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by HiJackZX1

See this were my brain starts to hope around. I am just battling back and forth on components and coaxials........... I want it to sound best (component) but I hate all the extra stuff. Also the time delay I keep reading everywhere is killing me. Why do I have to over think things so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want it to be easy and sound ok, then buy a coaxial.

If you want it to be hard but sound great, then buy component.

Only hard part about components is the installation. Thats why most people use velcro etc to test the tweets in different locations.

I wouldn't worry about time alignment. You can skip the need for T/A by mounting the tweeters in the correct locations.

If you really want coaxial for your center channel, some component sets come with mounting kits which lets you mount the tweeter on top of the midbass which is pretty much the same thing as a coaxial.

thewizard · 07-12-2009, 07:07 AM

Go with the components, stop over thinking all of this. The quality difference between coax and component is night and day. There is no reason why you still cannot use a coax for just the center channel. If you put a coax and a component mid-bass driver both from the same manufacturer on the table side by side, the build quality difference between the two will be obvious for even a newby. Go to any of the car audio sites and ask this same question there, and I am certain that you come back with a different opinion.

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