X-Fi but no 5.1 (or 4.1)

BrianMay · 05-18-2006, 05:26 AM

I have two 4 chan amps...one powering the 4speakers and the other one bridged to power 2 subs I use use a Y spliter ont the sub rca cable so I can get two inputs from the one output from the soundcard

I bought a x-fi sound card hoping to improve my sound...I've selected the 5.1 option and that's where the problems began...

there is no option to remix the center channel so I can get a fake 5.1
the other problem is that I can't get any bass form the subwoofers while linstening to mp3 or watching divx

I though "why not select 4.1?" but 4.1 is actually 4.0 since there is no sub output enabled

anyone.......?

Genesisfactor · 05-18-2006, 09:36 AM

well, i i looked at your setup correctly, the ONLY amp set up correctly is the speakers amp. The other amp, at best, will suck.

Here's the deal: you are outputting your center channel to your subs.

You need an actuive or passive crossover to get rid of the high frequencies your subs can't reproduce. Also, since its being split, you're not getting full blast. Your'e connected stright from your sound card to your amp (whcih apparenly generates a weak output itself) PLUS you're degratding ths signal by splitting it, making it weaker.

WORSE, creative's speakers are made to be used with COMputer speakers, which has a built in crossover network in the subs, so 4 speaker is going to gerneate full range 4.0, and then its going to expect your system to do the crossover and splitting for you. Once again....active crossover. do this, and you'll lose phantom center unless you rewire your fronts a little.

X-Fi front and rear---------->Audiocontrol 3xs, 4xs, or 6xs*-----------) amps

* any crossover that will allow you to boost power AND go from F/R to F/R/S

ALSO, your sub's amp SHOULD be able to support bridging of 2 channels wihout you messing wiht a splitter. Read the manual. IF it doesn't, that's very strange and, no offense, the amp probably sucks then because most 4 channels i've heard about can be 4, 2 and 1 bridged (3), 2 bridged, and 1 bridged.

If you want 5.1, your center/sub shoudl be like this

X-Fi center/sub---------->Audiocontrol 3xs, 4xs, or 6xs*-----------) amp

WHat you woudl then do is have 2 channels to an acutal center, and two channels to your Subs, which you would set up accoding to which outputs on the crossover you used for center or subs and where they attached to your amps.

Have fun

JC-S60 · 05-18-2006, 12:02 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

well, i i looked at your setup correctly, the ONLY amp set up correctly is the speakers amp. The other amp, at best, will suck.

Not true.

Quote:

Here's the deal: you are outputting your center channel to your subs.

Where is that stated? The stereo plug has 2 mono channels: 1 center and one sub

Quote:

You need an actuive or passive crossover to get rid of the high frequencies your subs can't reproduce. Also, since its being split, you're not getting full blast. Your'e connected stright from your sound card to your amp (whcih apparenly generates a weak output itself) PLUS you're degratding ths signal by splitting it, making it weaker.

A weak signal is not good, but no signal at all is something else, probably stereo that's not upmixing to 5.1, as I guess DVD playback works fine (does it?).

Quote:

WORSE, creative's speakers are made to be used with COMputer speakers, which has a built in crossover network in the subs, so 4 speaker is going to gerneate full range 4.0, and then its going to expect your system to do the crossover and splitting for you.

Huh? I guess you mean that creative's soundcards are made to be used with computer speakers.
Well, that's not true either. The sub-output outputs ONLY the low frequencies for the sub(s). The four other channels are full range OR everything but very lows. It's a setting called bass redirection.

Quote:

Once again....active crossover. do this, and you'll lose phantom center unless you rewire your fronts a little.

X-Fi front and rear---------->Audiocontrol 3xs, 4xs, or 6xs*-----------) amps
* any crossover that will allow you to boost power AND go from F/R to F/R/S

He never stated that power is a problem. I don't know if a simple crossover will create a phontom center.
Software for the card should do this.

Quote:

ALSO, your sub's amp SHOULD be able to support bridging of 2 channels wihout you messing wiht a splitter. Read the manual. IF it doesn't, that's very strange and, no offense, the amp probably sucks then because most 4 channels i've heard about can be 4, 2 and 1 bridged (3), 2 bridged, and 1 bridged.

Well, he has 2 bridged, that's why he uses the splitter. It says so in the post.

Quote:

If you want 5.1, your center/sub shoudl be like this

X-Fi center/sub---------->Audiocontrol 3xs, 4xs, or 6xs*-----------) amp

WHat you woudl then do is have 2 channels to an acutal center, and two channels to your Subs, which you would set up accoding to which outputs on the crossover you used for center or subs and where they attached to your amps.

He doesn't have an actual center, why else would he want phantom center??

Center/sub are mono, you shouldn't mix them together to split them again in a crossover, it serves no purpose!

It could help to put some "I think" and "maybe" 's in your assumptions, as you talk as if you are an expert but you sound more like a active crossover salesman!

To the OP:

Personally I think that software settings are the problem. Try with a DVD and see if that gives you 5.1 (whilst in 5.1 mode). If it does, you should search for a setting to "upmix" your stereo sound (mp3 , divx) to 5.1 (DTS or something like that).
Also, try to find an option letting you have phontom center. If it isn't there, you should mix the center into the front 2 channels, but that's not a trivial thing to do.

Good luck!

Will Albers · 05-18-2006, 02:02 PM

I have the xfi and have used it in your configuration. I agree its a software issue. Play with your software settings a bit more.

BrianMay · 05-18-2006, 02:47 PM

JC-S60: thanks for the tips

I'll try to connect a dvd player to the computer and check it out...but when testing the thx option of the soundcard I get a hge amount of bass on the sub test...so it must be a stereo issue...

Will Albers: did you have the same problem? how did you fix it? what settings are you using?

thanks

Genesisfactor · 05-18-2006, 05:00 PM

[QUOTE=JC-S60]Not true.

On the subs amp, that was my mistake, i missed the word bridged.

A weak signal is not good, but no signal at all is something else, probably stereo that's not upmixing to 5.1, as I guess DVD playback works fine (does it?).

If DVD playback works, then is CMSS on? Other than signal, that's the only other thing i can think of that would cause that problem.

Huh? I guess you mean that creative's soundcards are made to be used with computer speakers.
Well, that's not true either. The sub-output outputs ONLY the low frequencies for the sub(s). The four other channels are full range OR everything but very lows. It's a setting called bass redirection.

i didn't say that for 5.1 or 2 channel/speaker, ESPECIALLY since i've used my cards with hometheater equipment as i don't own regular computer speakers! I would never state that so exclusively. With that statment, i'm reffering to 4.1, not 5.1, which allows you to mess with the bass, where as 4 speaker has it greyed out. The 4 speaker ones, if you look at their site, and there was a thread on this, shows that to get 4.1, whcih is 4 speaker, the way you connect it. I used creative's layout for that one. I mean, hey, its one thing for me to say something out of the blue, but not when i'm pretty much taking it out of the manual! I know what you're talking about, but htat's with 5.1 and a phantom setting. If you can show me how you set up your 4 speaker creative card without using the crossover network they DISTINCTLY refer to in the manual, please, let me know, because then i can sell a few things i have for my stereo and i need the money

He never stated that power is a problem. I don't know if a simple crossover will create a phontom center.
Software for the card should do this.

I believe, a crossover can. According to my manual for the 3xs, of the set up options it gives, you can take a single stereo RCA in and split it to two stereo mid/high frequencies out and one stereo sub out.

He doesn't have an actual center, why else would he want phantom center??

I said he can rewire to include an actual one using the 4 way amp; that was a suggestion.

It could help to put some "I think" and "maybe" 's in your assumptions, as you talk as if you are an expert but you sound more like a active crossover salesman!

Haha, no, i don't sell active crossovers, i prefer the ones i mentioned for two reasons: they're good crossovers and they make the sound, as a whole, better. Also, my prefereance would be to split the signal in other ways than just a mono splitter. That is MY prefereance and i would offer that if another person asked.

My assumptions were based on me not reading one word, which does change the problem a bit, doesn't it? I apologize for the err. I mean, i think i showed that when i asked him why he didn't bridge the amp in the first place. However, my 4 speaker explanation holds true regardless, you do need a crossover for that. The 5.1 speaker one is inaccurate.

As i said above, check CMSS and your dobly settings. I'm reading through your product manual now to see if anything else could solve it Although it may be for nought as if will got by this issue, his explanation would solve yours
[/Qoute]

Will Albers · 05-18-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianMay

JC-S60: thanks for the tips

I'll try to connect a dvd player to the computer and check it out...but when testing the thx option of the soundcard I get a hge amount of bass on the sub test...so it must be a stereo issue...

Will Albers: did you have the same problem? how did you fix it? what settings are you using?

thanks

Tough to say the settings im using. Im not near my machine. I remember there were a good amount of setting in the software installed. You did install all of the software correct? No i didnt have the same issue but be careful with the settings.

BrianMay · 05-19-2006, 05:00 AM

yes...I installed everything on the driver's cd...not the dvd but the dvd is just demo stuff...isn't it?

JC-S60 · 05-19-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

If DVD playback works, then is CMSS on? Other than signal, that's the only other thing i can think of that would cause that problem.

The whole point of CMSS is upmixing stereo to 5.1 (or 4.1, 7.1 etc...)
DVD (mostly) is already Dolby surround, that's most likely the case, not low signal (see post of the OP proving this with the speaker test).

from creative:
It can upmix stereo sources such as MP3, WMA, or Wav, to 4.1/5.1/6.1/7.1 channels depending on your speaker setup and sound card model.

Quote:

i didn't say that for 5.1 or 2 channel/speaker, ESPECIALLY since i've used my cards with hometheater equipment as i don't own regular computer speakers! I would never state that so exclusively. With that statment, i'm reffering to 4.1, not 5.1, which allows you to mess with the bass, where as 4 speaker has it greyed out. The 4 speaker ones, if you look at their site, and there was a thread on this, shows that to get 4.1, whcih is 4 speaker, the way you connect it. I used creative's layout for that one. I mean, hey, its one thing for me to say something out of the blue, but not when i'm pretty much taking it out of the manual! I know what you're talking about, but htat's with 5.1 and a phantom setting. If you can show me how you set up your 4 speaker creative card without using the crossover network they DISTINCTLY refer to in the manual, please, let me know, because then i can sell a few things i have for my stereo and i need the money

It wasn't clear to me you meant only with 4.1. And yes, there seems to be a problem with the x-fi and 4.1.

Quote:

He never stated that power is a problem. I don't know if a simple crossover will create a phontom center.
Software for the card should do this.

I believe, a crossover can. According to my manual for the 3xs, of the set up options it gives, you can take a single stereo RCA in and split it to two stereo mid/high frequencies out and one stereo sub out.

That doesn't create a phantom center, that creates a 4.1 output from stereo source. Very different, as you don't have surround and you don't have your sub-output controlled by the pc that way.

From what I read, the x-fi indeed has a problem with 4.1, so you might need to go for:

4.0 and rewire your sub to get the signal from the other 4 channels (active crossover or loop-through output of your 4 speaker amp)

OR

5.1 with a phantom center, which -if not available in software- you could obtain by looping your center channel (mono) to your line-input (stereo) with a y-splitter and mixing line-input into playback. You need to be carefull NOT to enable CMSS when doing this, as you'll get a loop possibly blowing your speakers!

Good luck!

BrianMay · 05-27-2006, 04:37 PM

still can't find what's wrong, but solved it with a surround plugin for winamp (I'm using RR)

ramy_zohair · 05-28-2006, 12:11 AM

A similar discussion that may help you out.
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/show...ght=x-fi+rules

BrianMay · 05-29-2006, 04:22 AM

thanks

crooper · 01-22-2007, 06:32 AM

I use AC3Filter for converting 5.1 to 4.1. You set the X-Fi to 5.1, and then set AC3Filter output to 2/2+SW 4.1 (Quadro). Blends the center channel into the front speakers. Use either AC3Filter or your X-Fi console to set the crossover point if you want bass redirection. Works great.

http://ac3filter.net/

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