up for discussion... balanced vs. unbalanced signal - Page 2

turbocad6 · 09-13-2006, 02:28 PM

ahhhh, that's always the BEST reference... I usually advise wanna be tuners to spend some time listening to there source material with a high quality set of headphones on a high quality reference system, to know what there ideally shooting for to begin with.....

also anxiously awaiting these results, I've been kicking around the idea of getting the newer f1 status processor, like the 700, but much more advanced & computer intergration too, but I'm afraid this may still suffer compared to what your talking about, this is very dependant on what your going to use for 1/3 octave tunning though.....

scott_fx · 09-13-2006, 02:30 PM

yeah any help with the eq'ing and setup of the test would be great. i think i may have to load up winamp and look into the tuning plug-ins

RedGTiVR6 · 09-13-2006, 02:42 PM

let us know what you find on the plug ins.

Re the F1 piece: My only reason for not going that route now turbo is that you must use the cd player with it, correct?

turbocad6 · 09-13-2006, 03:23 PM

honestly, I'm not to sure.. I have a whole alpine system in my car, so I've never been to concerned with that... I know the 900 would work for me, the new new one I'm not to sure...

as far as the eq, yeah, see that's what I would expect to be an issue, if you clean up the audio signal to the point of a perfect clean unprocessed signal, that's all well & good, but in a car, the car itself just adds so much in the way of ruining the sound, by reflections, absorbsions & other artifacts that are introduced, that 1/3 octave tunning is 100% necissary really.... how that is handled is what will determine the actual final results.....

I'm guessing if you ran this directly into a pair of eqt's or maybe even a pair of other high end eq's like a pair of rane's the problem would be solved, but that's so 1980's

I did see a few threads about software eq's, never paid much attention to them though..... until now anyway....

scott_fx · 09-13-2006, 04:01 PM

I am not sure that the eq'ing will be critical in this review. i'm thinking maybe raw output into the headphones to just compare what we would be working with. then after that it would be off to the car where eq'ing would be a must, but i'm not sure if that would be a fair comparison since each card would most likely need a different eq setting. hmmm maybe we could collaborate on a way to do this test scientificly.

schreibers · 09-13-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by RedGTiVR6

let us know what you find on the plug ins.

Re the F1 piece: My only reason for not going that route now turbo is that you must use the cd player with it, correct?

That is correct the new F#1 combo must be used together and you can daisy chain the processors for more channels. That's why the the H900/7990 remain to be some of my favorites is that they can be used independantly of eachother.

Having said that i'm looking forward to this review once you recieve it and give it a listen!

turbocad6 · 09-13-2006, 06:53 PM

yeah, the new alpine f1 uses a different buss communication I think, never looked into it to much, I'm still drooling for a 900

see, to me, the end result is the key factor.... I mean what I may loose in ultra quality with the 700, I also gain with the ultra tunning abilities, so it's always been an aceptable tradeoff to me really...

I don't doubt that with your headphones it'll sound better with a pure unprocessed signal for each comparison, that's really a given, but what will the real world end results be, I mean given the choice of having either a pure unprocessed true signal, run through the best $10,000 tube amplifiers, but not being able to tune it 1/3 octave, or having run of the mill modern good equiptment with the ability to really tune 1/3 octave in a vehicle install, I'd definatley choose the latter, only because my end result will be more acurate & true belive it or not....

in order for this to really be a better solution, then this has to be addressed... home audio & car audio are 2 very different animals.... it is usually acceptable to a real audophile to use ultra high end everything, with state of the art reference monitors in an auditioning room, & not use any equalization... some may go to the extent of actually "tuning" the ROOM, with soudproofing, cutting out standing wave reflections with drapes, eggshell foam pads, or whatever, but in a car this all changes dramatically....,

there are very few things you can do to tune the car itself, so you have to tune the system... even if your equiptment is able to reproduce "perfect" sound (no such thing), once it's installed in a car this all goes out the window, (& the roof, & the uphulstery, & the floorboards, & the dash... etc) & every car will be dramatically different, you can't take a system out of one car, install it in another, & have it sound exactly the same, the car itself plays a major role in the end sound... this is what bose systems are all about... take cheap crap components, tune them for the environment they'll live in, & the end result sounds good....

you will have to find a good way of tuning for this to really be a benifit over the more common solutions such as the 700...

I don't know of any more sientific way of testing than a trained human ear, & one thing to note, while your solution may be better, it will only be marginal, subtle nuances.... slightly warmer sounding, slightly more acurate..., don't expect a night & day difference.... the average person wouldn't even be able to hear any difference, a true audiophile will be able to pick these subtle things up though, & that's where the difference is.... don't be too disapointed if it sounds almost the same, all other things being equal, it probably will be close...., maybe a bit more distinct with a reference headset, but still subtle...

those last few ounces though are what it's all about....

scott_fx · 09-13-2006, 07:03 PM

thanks for tha great post. think there already is a vst 1/3 octave eq for winamp/RR. That is why i'm thinking that my review would be more beneficial if it was a unaltered comparison of the 3 (maybe four..i want to see how my sb live 5.1 with kxproject drivers holds up) soundcards and then the ultimate tuning would be left for the end user to figure out. I really wish i would have held onto my pxa-h701 for a bit longer to include it in the test, but unfortunately that is not an option.

so with that being said; do you think my comparison will be of any help to the general public?

i would assume that if card a sounds better on the headphones...then card a would sound better eq'ed in the car as well... does this sound right?

turbocad6 · 09-13-2006, 07:48 PM

yes & no.... I mean, if all other things are equal, then yes, if the soundcard sounds better then the results should sound better, but again, I'm really looking more at the whole picture

if you post back that soundcard a sounds better than b,c & d, that's fine, but if soundcard c has an optical out into a 700, while soundcard a doesn't, then your comparing apples to oranges....

for your test to really be conclusive to me, you'd have to compare soundcard c, run through a 700 tuned to the best of your ability, with soundcard a, tuned to the best of your ability through whatever software your going to use for equalization..... AND in the intended environment, in the car, not through headphones, which are a little controlled cacoon of an environment

the 2 go hand in hand, & the total end result is what really counts....

please don't take this as me discounting anything that your doing, not in the least... but no one component makes a system, that's why it's called a system, the sum of all the parts, all togeather.....

really, if you think about it, all the alpine is doing is tuning through software as well, but very specific software that is specifically designed for there hardware....

I guess the real question then will be, is add on software for a pc, in combination with your soundcard, as good as or better than an optical out into the 700.... how does that compare....

I fully expect you to report that your soundcard sounds "better" than the lesser cards both on an analog port, thru your reference phones, but what about the system as a whole..... this is the real question......

for an analogy, lets say the soundcard your talking about adds a factor of plus 3 in "sound quality", but on the software end the alpine edges the pc out by a factor of 3, in frequency seperation, "Q" & added artifacts... the end results would be there is no real benifit....

add to this the difference between an optical transmission compared to a balanced analog signal... there are several variables there too... if your soundcard is in the front of the car, this can be a factor, but theres much less difference if the soundcard would be installed right near the amps... this is where the alpine has an advantage too in some cases, I mean 1.5' rca's compared to 17' rca's....

in the end, if you do say that your soundcard sounds better, that really isn't totally conclusive enough to say that it is the better option really.....

I don't know if I'm helping here, or just throwing a wrench in the works, but I'm trying to help

scott_fx · 09-13-2006, 07:58 PM

you make soem great points. unfortunately i dont think my review will help you at all because i can't compare it to the h700. the one good part about the usb dac is that it sends the non oversampled digital signal along a usb cable. this cable can be extended right next to your amp or x-over and (built with the right interconnects) can be plugged directly into your amp. Does the optical input on the h701 resample the signal?

turbocad6 · 09-13-2006, 08:05 PM

you know, I just re-read the thread, & I now realize that your intended topic was the comparison of balanced vs. unbalanced, not a comparison of your solution to the 700, so I'm sorry if I went more off topic, but I'm more comparing this solution you have to the standard high end pc install, of optical into the 700 ..

sorry

I'm not to sure if the alpine resamples on the optical.... I wouldn't think so, but don't know for sure...

scott_fx · 09-13-2006, 11:41 PM

well my original plan is to try to get or surpass the h701's s/q. i had the 701 but hated the fact that i needed to ruin my oem looking dash with the controller (i'm going for oem/stealth look).

since i am retarded and keep buying soundcards before even trying one

, i decided to do an honest comparison between what i have in order to help others (not as crazy as you and red) with obtaining the best sound possible

scott_fx · 09-23-2006, 05:55 PM

well kick ***!!! i finally found the butler 3 way active x-over. it has rca inputs as well as xlr's. this is going to make in car testing soooo easy.