Lukeyson

I'm curious if anyone has tried the Mongoose or Mongoose-Plus with the Motorcraft/Ford PCMFlash/Websflash J2534 utility.

In some ways I'm after two answers here:

(1) What can the Motorcraft PCMFlash utility do?

Can it do many of the same things as a WDS/NGS/IDS software tool (Ford Enhanced PID queries, Diagnostics Triggering and Module Programming) or can it ONLY do what is written up about it - new calibration files, Passive Anti Theft and Emissions stuff?

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi...utsid=pubs_pcm

Oh, and Motorcraft say it's only for US cars. Does anyone else know any different (say for an Australian Ford)? I'll email Motorcraft shortly with some questions.

(2) If there's a more rich set of features than those listed on the Motorcraft page, would any of them work with the Mongoose?

It's hard to find detail on the Mongoose-plus. Is there a Mongoose-plus that supports ISO/CAN like the Asia/Europe Mongoose, or does the Mongoose-plus only support PWM for the moment?


Lukeyson

joeyoravec

Ford's J2534 software (FMP) lets you flash modules, perform PATS key programming, and configure certain settings like the seatbelt reminder. I've never seen a formal list of features but it works pretty well.

The IDS has extra menu options to read enhanced PIDs and directly control certian solenoids. For some reason they have IDS locked down so it works only with the Ford tool, and not with any J2534 tool. Last time I asked they said "nobody has asked to use IDS with a J2534 device" which I interpret as "we get more money if we sell an expensive Ford tool and lock IDS so it only works with that".


No idea, but they usually respond within 24-48 hours. I'd complain to motorcraft if that's true because there's no technical reason for them to leave Australian cars unsupported.


Ford needs a special voltage on pin 13 the to kick the ECU into reprogramming mode. The Mongoose PWM/CAN+FEPS provides this voltage.

Some non-powertrain modules are on a separate Medium Speed CAN network on pins 3 & 11. Although I'd love to support that, Ford refused to release the information and they do not seem to follow the standard in J2534-2. So until Ford shares that information with J2534 vendors, I'm not aware of any tools that can work with modules on that network. They should go visit http://www.righttorepair.org/.

Lukeyson

OK Joey, you just confused me a bit with the last of your answers.

Are you saying - with regard to non-powertrain modules - that Ford have a J2534-2 application that is not using your API's correctly? Or does J2534-2 describe how to custom 'extend' the API capability, and they haven't provided you their extensions? I'm not quite sure what the disconnect is there.

Also, this pin 13 bit is interesting. Is that a Ford Specific thing? It looks to be part of the PWM standard, but I've seen pin 13 get used with aftermarket reflashing systems that are CAN Only. (ie the SCT Flasher rebranded in Australia by CAPA, Herrods and others). If not Ford, is powering pin 13 in a standard?


Lukeyson

joeyoravec

There are three sections to the standard. J2534-1 describes mandatory features for emissions-related flash, J2534-2 contains optional features, and J2534-3 is a testing procedure to prove that a box implements everything correctly.

Automakers are only compelled (by US law) to provide J2534 software for emissions related modules like the powertrain and transmission. Ideally they'll above-and-beyond the requirements. For example, the GM software uses J2534-2 so you can flash all modules, program keys, etc. Others implement the letter of the law but nothing more. A few ignore the law entirely and risk getting fined.

I can't kock Ford completely. They has some optional features like PATS key programming which work great. But there are a few menu choices where they seem to "do their own thing" and don't follow the standard. It's legal when those features aren't required by law, but it's a bummer. The least they could do is work with all tool vendors and publish the necessary information.


It's a Ford specific thing. Other automakers want voltage or ground on different pins. Some don't need it at all. It's just a way to prevent you from getting into flash mode and accidentally erasing while driving down the road.

DM2

So JOEOREVAC, based on your posts it appears that the MONGOOSE does work with the Ford/Motorcraft software, but the Ford Software is crippled.

I just got my 2008 King Ranch Superduty and also purchased the Service Manual on CD-ROM (I've always purchased the service manual on the vehicles I buy).

I looked through the manual and thought I saw the OBD-II codes for not only the Engine and Transmission but also the chassis and body. I've converted it to an EXCEL spreadsheet because I want to be able to access it with my CarPC. Based on your posts, it appears that some of the OBD-II codes are ether not included in the service manual and/or they are there, but there’s no way to get to them.

I've never installed a Car PC but have worked with numerous protocols to include CANbus, MODBUS, LONworks, etc. as well as HMI programs like Labview, Wonderware, and others in the industrial arena. I’ve also used OPC software to bring information in from various protocols. I've gotten the impression that there isn’t a package that allows you to configure it the way I want as well as a few buttons that flash the ECU for performance, mileage, etc. Is this true with the DREW equipment?

I've looked at the "Right to Repair" act, which appears to have started in 2005 and, living in Texas, sent an e-mail to Rep Barton asking the status. We'll see if I get a response.

I’ll be interested in the response Lukeyson gets to the e-mail to Motorcraft.

__________________
Real world knowledge isn't dropped from a parachute in the sky but rather acquired in tiny increments from a variety of sources including panic and curiosity.

joeyoravec

Yes the Mongoose works just as good as (or better than) any other tool with that FMP software. I just wanted to be perfectly clear about my experience with the software, good or bad, since I work at drewtech and sometimes get accused of bias.

Probably 95% of the Ford software works great. There are a few buttons that would show a "this is not supported" error message on every tool I've ever tried (not limited to Mongoose). Of course that begs the question of why those choices are even in Ford's software. Who knows, maybe they're just a placeholder? Hopefully they'll share more information in the future.


Every automaker uses a security-algorithm to prevent you from reflashing a custom calibration. People do it, the stuff is out there, but you might have lawyers knocking on your door for violating the DMCA if you released some open source flashing program. You can buy all the necessary hardware but you won't find much in the way of software, and if you do it'll be limited to very specific makes/models.

But the info is all out there to log and display data. My time and advice is always available to anybody good at graphics that wants to write a plugin for one of the popular frontends.

Lukeyson

By 'security' here Joey, I assume you're talking about the challenge-response stuff in J2186 using Mode $27? I take it then that I'd have no choice but to contact Ford about that....

Hmm. Now that someone else is after some Motorcraft info I better get in and actually send an email now eh?

DM2 - I'd be interested in a PM Re: your PIDS if you're inclined to share them - I assume you're not just talking about the PID Text labels that you can find anywhere, but the Hex values and scaling right?. There's no guarantee of course that any info from your body modules would match mine, but it would be an interesting place to start.


Lukeyson

DM2

Lukeyson,
Just sent you a PM. I'm green at this so not sure if you got it. Let me know if you didn't.

__________________
Real world knowledge isn't dropped from a parachute in the sky but rather acquired in tiny increments from a variety of sources including panic and curiosity.

Lukeyson

Thanks for that DM.

As per our PM's and Emails I thought at first you were talking about PIDs. I guess I was hoping you were talking about PIDS anyway.

I got your DTC list and it should prove quite helpful in matching with my list. Thanks.


Lukeyson


PS: I'm quite taken by your sig. Is it a quote from somewhere?

Lukeyson

FEPS?

I've only now just gone back to see the reference to FEPS in your inital email Joey.

I take it that an ordinary Mongoose PWM/CAN with the optional 'FEPS Circuit' is what some resellers are referring to as the Mongoose-plus?

What is FEPS and what does it stand for?

This 'FEPS Circuit' is not an option on the ISO/CAN unit - which is the one I'd be interested in. Is there a reason for this?

My PCM is actually managed on the CAN bus, not PWM. Your PWM/CAN would be interesting to me for the CAN aspect, but since I have ISO as my 2nd bus and not PWM, it's not ideal. For me the ISO bus is used for diagnostics only on some additional modules - ABS, ABS FILL/EVAC, Park Aid, Restraints Control - so it's useful enough to want to retain access to ISO even if we don't yet have J2534-2 support from Ford for these and other modules on both the ISO and CAN buses.

If it counts for anything, assuming there's no other technical limitation that I'm not aware of, I would purchase a Mongoose CAN/ISO + FEPS if one were available on the grounds that it would provide me with a degree of future-proofedness. A unit of that nature would probably prove useful for Fords in Australia.


Lukeyson

Lukeyson

Er - partly answering one of my questions is this Ford Acronyms page:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10...finitions.html

FEPS: Flash EEPROM Programming Signal. 18 volt DC signal sent by the scan tool to initiate PCM reprogramming.

And interestingly enough, the Pinout label on the PCM Module says 'FEPS' on the pin that connects to OBD2 port pin 13. Nice.


Lukeyson

joeyoravec

The real product name is Mongoose PWM/CAN+FEPS. I just did a search, and yes it looks like some resellers are using that name. I guess can see why, since that is quite a mouthful.


The PWM/CAN+FEPS is basically the "ford version" of Mongoose, and supports flashing on almost all US vehicles. The big exception is the Ford Probe which might be ISO, but I can't test because they're long out of production and pretty rare to see these days. Plus I have no idea if that one is even flashable in the first place.

With Mongoose the idea was to keep cost low by adding all the features you need, and none that you don't. This is in contrast to CarDAQ which does everything for every car but costs more. There will be exceptions that don't fall into a single Monogose cable, but the divisions work pretty well in general. If you think that you need more, you might want to watch ebay for a used CarDAQ (they do show up occasionally!).


To clarify ISO, PWM, and CAN are all mandatory (-1) features so you really should have no problem. What I said was that Ford's program doesn't seem to access their optional (-2) network MSCAN correctly according to the standard. I just made the comment so nobody accuses me of saying "everything works perfectly" when I know Ford's software has this bug. You're not telling me that your car modules on an MSCAN network, so the issue probably doesn't apply to you.

Of course Motorcraft claimed your Australian vehicle was unsupported in the first place, so Ford might be leaving you high-and-dry anyway.

Lukeyson

Ah, that's the trick isn't it! Creating a topic with enough scope to stay on it.....

Email has been sent to Motorcraft. I will report back if I get any answers.


Lukeyson

Lukeyson

A reply from Motorcraft:

"The Ford Module Programming application is for North American Ford vehicles only. We do not know if any Ford Module Programming application will be developed for use with Ford vehicles outside the North American market. What you see on those pages tells you the types of modules with which Ford Module Programming can communicate on North American Ford vehicles. There are no plans to use J2534 pass-thru devices for IDS and PDS. These tools only use the Vehicle Communication Module, or VCM, to communicate with vehicles."


So there you have it. Much as we suspected, but not at all what we wanted.


Lukeyson

DM2

Lukeyson,
Who did you e-mail? Got an address? I'll like to ask them a few questions myself.


I can't remember where I got this quote but I use it with all my designers along with several others to include:

"We never have problems...only opportunities"

My designers say I'm full of usless information

__________________
Real world knowledge isn't dropped from a parachute in the sky but rather acquired in tiny increments from a variety of sources including panic and curiosity.