Flash card bootable drive? - Page 2

eugenen · 12-01-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by The Durango Kid

eugenen I stand corrected.. Yes for running a Windows9X or greater OS..

You mean Windows not windows 9x or greater

. IMHO Linux is greater than Windows

Sorry couldn't resist.

The Durango Kid · 12-02-2003, 08:50 AM

Quote:

IMHO Linux is greater than Windows

Well for the most part I have to agree but I only program in VB and .NET so my program wouldn't work in Linux so that rules out Linux as an OS (unless I run and emulater which I really don't want to do)..

Tidder · 12-10-2003, 11:42 PM

I would agree too that the best thing to do would be to get one of those solid state (flash) hard drives. Like a laptop IDE drive. I've seen them up to 2 gig. It would be better to get a drive that is actually made to be used as a hard drive than to get a compact flash card with an IDE adapter and piece something together. I've seen a 2 gig drive on ebay for $85 bucks before, so if you can find the good deals, that would be the way to go.

fluffy2097 · 12-10-2003, 11:58 PM

$85 will buy you an 80 GB western digital hard drive with an 8MB cache. Or for $99 yo could get a 120 GB seagate drive (newegg's main page).

I looked on Ebay and every 2 GB CF card I could find cost more then $100

$85 for 2GB for something that will fail before some thing that can hold 80GB? Thats a bit pricey for me, especialy if it's to gain a possible 5 second reduction in boot time.

Seraph · 12-11-2003, 12:15 AM

I am with fluffy on this one.

pplante · 12-11-2003, 12:20 AM

Using CF as the boot drive does not seem like a good idea to me either. The reason for this is not only the limits of transfer speed on CF cards, but also the drives/cards are prone to fail faster than Laptop HDDS which can withstand over 300Gs of force. Compact flash drives are also more expensive than picking up a small 5-10gb drive as your boot drive and an 80gb drive as your data drive. I say that they are more expensive because of the fact that you would need atleast a 512mb or higher card which even on ebay can cost on the upwards of $200+.

So what are the reasons you have for going with a CF card as the boot device now that we have eliminated the speed issue by proving that CF is slower than IDE transfer rates and also by me providing a solution which is more cost effective and overall more efficient. Please explain in detail as I have no idea why one would want to spend so much money just to gain a whole 5 seconds in boot time which could be gained by using Linux or Windows without the explorer shell and all its services that are not requied just to run GUI output.

The Durango Kid · 12-11-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

So what are the reasons you have for going with a CF card as the boot device now that we have eliminated the speed issue by proving that CF is slower than IDE transfer rates

CF cards for a bootable device are NOT slower.. The transfer speeds they talk about are not the transfer speed to RAM.. Booting from a CF card is atleast 50% faster then a standard IDE drive. I've booted Win98 from a USB CF and booted in 6 seconds.. Thats a standard windows install.. From a ram drive I've booted in under 2 seconds (once copied to the ram drive).. Your transer rate will only come into play if you are moving files to and from the drive.. Notice the CF cards have next to 0 access time.. This is what will help your boot times..

Quote:

and also by me providing a solution which is more cost effective and overall more efficient.

Well money is not my driving force here.. Performance is.. So if paying a few extra bucks from something that will give me the performance I want then that what I would have done..

Quote:

Please explain in detail as I have no idea why one would want to spend so much money just to gain a whole 5 seconds in boot time which could be gained by using Linux or Windows without the explorer shell and all its services that are not requied just to run GUI output.

Even if you which to Linux or XPLite with an IDE drive you can do the same with a CF drive and pick up the same advantage.. That doesn't change which is better cause you can do it to both..

Since other then stealing the embeded software from Microsoft (which I don't plan on doing) I see no other option other then run a standard 2 drive setup or run a CF drive hosting my OS and running it from a ram drive (I have a feeling this is going to be a little too slow) I don't have much of a choice.. More then likely I'll be running 2 drives (since I found a 2.5gig laptop drive from my old laptop) and suspend to ram with WindowsXP..

Thanks for the input everyone.. I knew the limatations of the CF drives but I wanted to see if anyone had figured out a way around them (readonly Windows OS)..

Tidder · 12-11-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by fluffy2097

$85 will buy you an 80 GB western digital hard drive with an 8MB cache. Or for $99 yo could get a 120 GB seagate drive (newegg's main page).

I looked on Ebay and every 2 GB CF card I could find cost more then $100

$85 for 2GB for something that will fail before some thing that can hold 80GB? Thats a bit pricey for me, especialy if it's to gain a possible 5 second reduction in boot time.

You missed what I was talking about. Search on google for solid state ide hard drive. They are actual Laptop (2.5") hard drives, not CF cards! They are along the same technology as CF cards, but are actually designed to be used as hard drives. No moving parts or nothing. That is better than a CF card with an IDE adapter...

I've seen 256mb drives, 512mb, 1 gig, 2 gig, there may be bigger

The Durango Kid · 12-11-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

The flash drive consists of an IDE controller and an array of flash memory devices, which support the standard ATA/IDE register and command set.

From http://www.bits.com/i-software/10110358.html

It that statement is right then they drives have the same flaw CF cards do in their writing ability. I'll look further into it and see if I can find out for sure..

The Durango Kid · 12-11-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

PERFORMANCE (PRELIMINARY)
Item Performance
Start up times (Reset to Busy) 100 ms or less
Start up times (Reset to Not Busy) 16 sec or less
Read (sustained) 30 MBytes/sec
Write (sustained) 30 MBytes/sec
Read (burst) 30 MBytes/sec
Write (burst) 30 MBytes/sec

RELIABILITY
Item Value
MTBF (Note 1) 250,000 hours
Data Reliability <1 non-recoverable error in 1014 bits read
Write Endurance Per Sector Minimum: 300,000 write/erase cycles - Typical: > 1,000,000 write/erase cycles
Read Endurance Unlimited
Data Retention at 25°C 10 years

Anyone know the datawrite per sector on a standard platter disk?
1,000,000 per sector sure sounds like alot to me.. Hehe

This might be just what I am looking for.. Very pricey but might be worth picking up a 256meg or 512meg drive to host Windows.. I like the fact that it just plugs right into the IDE with out a cable..

deadweasel · 12-11-2003, 11:27 AM

Durango, have you thought about maybe simply partitioning your drive into two? A smaller C: partition and the larger D: storage partition. That way, you can have your Windows installation separate, while not worrying so much about having two physical drives...

Just a thought...

The Durango Kid · 12-11-2003, 11:40 AM

Deadweasel the problem I have is I can't use a wireless network so to move data to my carPC I will need to take the HD to the source.. Normally this would be fine and not a problem.. But since I am removing my HU for a CarPC if I forget the drive (and like I said before I know I will) I'll be SOL for any type of entertainment in the car.. If I have two drives (1 with the OS and my software and the other with my MP3's Divx/Xvid movies) if I forget my portable drive I can still boot the PC and access my XM radio.. Plus I plan to intergrate the PC into the car (like AC, Lights, etc etc)..

I'd rather have my OS and Software running on something a little less likely to break from hitting a pothole or something and still be able to have a portable drive..

I know it seems a little anal but I'd be more willing to pay the extra money unfront to have that peice of mind later..

deadweasel · 12-11-2003, 02:16 PM

Ahh... I see. Well, RAMdrive or CF seems like a logical choice then.

eugenen · 12-11-2003, 05:27 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Tidder

You missed what I was talking about. Search on google for solid state ide hard drive. They are actual Laptop (2.5") hard drives, not CF cards! They are along the same technology as CF cards, but are actually designed to be used as hard drives. No moving parts or nothing. That is better than a CF card with an IDE adapter...

I've seen 256mb drives, 512mb, 1 gig, 2 gig, there may be bigger

How is a flash drive any different than a CF with ide adapter. The ide adapter is just that an adapter, or a pair of connectors. The cf card was designed with ide in mind, the ide curcuitry is built into every CF card.
My reason for wanting one is I'm sort of building an embedded system. My OS will boot from the cf and run even if the mp3 drive isn't present. I have changed my plans to use a removable, hot pluggable ide drive for mp3's. I can remove my drive and take it with me and eventualy when my system does more such as interfacing with the OBD-II or GPS will still have some functionality there.

deadweasel · 12-11-2003, 09:13 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by eugenen

How is a flash drive any different than a CF with ide adapter. The ide adapter is just that an adapter, or a pair of connectors. The cf card was designed with ide in mind, the ide curcuitry is built into every CF card.
My reason for wanting one is I'm sort of building an embedded system. My OS will boot from the cf and run even if the mp3 drive isn't present. I have changed my plans to use a removable, hot pluggable ide drive for mp3's. I can remove my drive and take it with me and eventualy when my system does more such as interfacing with the OBD-II or GPS will still have some functionality there.

CF isn't really all that different from flashdrive. Just different buses. One is IDE (CF) and the other is serial (USB flashdrive). Unless of course, I got confused as to what everyone was referring to by "flash drive".

IDE is capable of faster transfer, but both CF and Flashdrive aren't capable of much more than the 12mbps transfer anyhow. (At least that's how it was explained to ME...)