MP3Car CarPC State of the Union 2006 - Page 2

84RegalRider · 10-11-2006, 01:26 PM

hmm totally different then you. once i got in education in "general electronics, cars, and computers" i got even more excited. i mean almost anything is possible.

like i got my 1984 car to interface with my carputer. all thanks to knowing general electronics (to find out what voltage everything was at and what it meant) auto knowledge so that i know what dwell, tps,mc sol, all those meant and know what i was reading, and computing (had to make my own program to interface with the ecu).

when i first had my carputer all i did was grad an invertor, spare computer parts, and bought an lcd, ati remote,mini keyboard, and i was off and happy.
maybe i got lucky with it being so easy and cheap.

lcd probably was made it so great.
hehe
10.4 touchscreen (gaw, so it works with gloves and ifs it dirty/geasey), daylight readable, dimmer, 10-15 volts and only cost me 50 bucks.

so maybe if i didnt have it i might be a lil more like you.
but maybe people like their screens and dont have too much trouble.

breaker021 · 10-12-2006, 02:33 PM

Too few words...

nubz69 · 10-17-2006, 11:32 AM

I have to agree a lot with this post. I have been waiting and waiting for the carputer to reach the level of modern head units. The only reason I can think for them not being able to match the features of a good hu yet is because the people who are writing the software and designing the hardware are not car audio/video professionals. The hardware has come quite a way and I understand that there is just so much a community like this can do to solve hardware problems but the software that is available for carputers is just so far behind, sound quality wise, imo. When is there going to be a front end that supports going fully active, has both parametric and Para graphic eq’s and can do drc? These features have been around in the car audio SQ scene since the 80's (excluding DRC of course).

RedGTI has some good counterpoints to a lot of what is lacking with carputers. Personally I care more about what is being done to fix the issues and when we could realistically have a complete solution for us all.

turbocad6 · 10-17-2006, 12:13 PM

man, you guys don't realize how EASY it is to put a pc in a car now adays....

there are dc/dc solutions made just for this purpose...

there are screens made to actually fit in the car...

there is usb plug & play....

there is a huge forum dedicated just to this subject, with free frontends & many knowledgable people with tons of examples & tons of support

the list goes on & on...

sure there will be better stuff in the future, but unless you plan on spending a lengthy vacation in some cryogenics storage, you have to live for today with what you have today....

in 1969 I doubt there were anyone saying
"man, how can you guys drive these cars that are out today... they use inferior carb's that rely on a mechanical blockage of air when cold to enrichen the mixture, they use polyglass rienforced tires that squirm under the extreme weight of the vehicle, there is only a mono am radio in the dash, there is no indication of where you are or where your going, & when they do get stuck, there is no way to actually call anyone for help.... I'll wait till there more evolved before I start driving"

it's all relative, but today is a great day to install that pc

Rob Withey · 10-17-2006, 12:25 PM

It used to be a whole lot harder.

RedGTiVR6 · 10-17-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by nubz69

community like this can do to solve hardware problems but the software that is available for carputers is just so far behind, sound quality wise, imo.

What are you referring to here? Are you saying that winamp is behind in terms of SQ? Are you saying that the front ends are causing you SQ issues? How does the software have to do with SQ?

Quote:

When is there going to be a front end that supports going fully active, has both parametric and Para graphic eq’s and can do drc? These features have been around in the car audio SQ scene since the 80's (excluding DRC of course).

I'm taking it you have no idea what it takes to write this kind of software? You're also leaving out some crucial parts of what is needed.

There IS software out there that exists to do what you are speaking of, in fact, i'm working on a sticket right now for it. Just because someone hasn't laid it all out for you already doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Writing an all in one program that will enable you to seperate frequencies on a perchannel basis, have a 31-band 1/3 octave EQ, time alignment, phase control, and a few other goodies is not like simply writing a front end mind you.

I'm sorry, but yet again, this simply sounds like someone who just wants it all handed to them and doesn't want to have to work, or even try to find a solution that might work.

In order to get the solutions in the first place, you have to show the industry that you really want it.

Think about it, look at the VERY small percentage of us that actually give a damn about high quality sound. We are FAR and FEW between on this board. if more people gave a damn, and if those that actually did give a damn didn't whine all the time about how **** poor the options were and just tried to make the best with what they have, maybe then there would actually be an all in one solution out there!

turbocad6 · 10-17-2006, 01:34 PM

yeah, then hand it ALL to him on a silver platter & the next response will be, Oh it costs too much

RedGTiVR6 · 10-17-2006, 01:36 PM

you're exactly right turbo.....

Wiredwrx · 10-17-2006, 02:12 PM

Booohooohoooo, booohooohooo.

Why isn't carputing like a HU. Why can't I do this and that with a carputer, it is soooo easy to do.

Well, if it is easy, then do it. Oh, you mean you can't do it, but you KNOW it is easily done. Then pay someone to do it. It can't be that expensive because it is easy, right?

You guys whine and whine and whine about what you don't have. It is PURE economics. The BIG manufacturers can spread the cost of R&D among all of thier products and consumers. Since carputing is VERY SMALL (what, small, look at this site, it is humongous. Compare that to the amount of cars on the road, and it is insignificant, and even compared to the amount of people that install aftermarket ICE, the carputer community is tiny) community and market, and by far, probably of the cheapest people on Earth (o.k., except for Ham radio operators, and I know, I am one) You want, you want, you want, but are unwilling to spend spend spend. Even if YOU and a bunch of your buddies were willing to spend for it, that is not enough to make it commercially viable for the manufacturers. Why do you think the BIG manufacturers haven't gotten into carputers yet. If the market was such a great place to make money, HOW HARD could it be for them to make thier HU's VGA and have a TS interface. Because not enough of thier customer base wants or needs it. Plain and simple.

While much of the hardware and software isn't perfect, it is far from bad. This "hobby" isn't for everyone. Like HAM radio. In the good ole days, like when my father started in HAM radio, he had to BUILD his own stuff. Sure, there were schematics available (there was no Internet, you had to BUY them to get them) and build it himself. If it broke, he fixed it himself. Sure, now adays, 35 years later, you can buy ham radios if you want, with very advanced features, but that took 35 years, and the equipment is NOT CHEAP. Yes, us "old timers" remember the days when there was no DC-DC with out building your own, and there was no such thing as a 7 inch VGA with TS. It was roll your own, or not have it. The state the "hobby" is in now is quite advanced. Perfect, NOPE. but good enough. Many people on this board have awesome systems, producing AMAZING sound, and doing everything, and more than, other commercial products. If you are willing to roll your own, then you are in business. If you want it to be given to you, or available cheaply then you are in the wrong "hobby" Forgo the carputer, and just get a commercial HU like the AVIC. There is nothing wrong with that. Then you can wait till you find a carputer system/software that suites your needs, instead of *****ing about the lack of solutions. Complaining about it won't help. Put your money where your mouth is, or just keep it closed.

Michael

nubz69 · 10-18-2006, 12:56 PM

I don't feel that it is to much to expect the software to at least do the basics of a $300 head unit. I think that the reason it hasn't come about yet is because a majority of the people on this site are more skilled with computers rather then high end car audio installs. The hardware has not been much of a limitation for a long time, IMO.

"What are you referring to here? Are you saying that winamp is behind in terms of SQ? Are you saying that the front ends are causing you SQ issues? How does the software have to do with SQ?"

I do feel winamp is a bit behind when it comes to doing a serious IASCA level SQ install. If there is a way to be doing all this please let me know, it is possible that in my search for a front end I have managed to miss this software. RedGTI please point me in the right direction so I can research this more.

I did a little searching and see that winamp now has a VST wrapper and that could in theory work for doing a fully active front stage. I guess I just might have to try it. I wonder if working with win amp this way will allow me to design a fully active 5.1 surround setup that can be used for SQ comps as well. I also see that utilizing bruteFIR in a car has yet to be implemented by anyone here or if it has been it hasn't been documented. I may have to start another thread on this because it seems that this discussion is more of a tangent to the original.

turbocad6 · 10-18-2006, 01:39 PM

red is working on a total pc solution right now... up until now the pinacle of performance audiowise was to feed a high end processor like the alpine, optically, & then go from there.

sure that's a hardware solution not a software.... but realize that that hardware solution is a stand alone pc itself of sort, & it can be looked at as the equivelent of going out & building a dedicated linux box to perform these functions...,

so it's not in your pc, but it also means that your pc is now free to do all of the processing it can do on other tasks, instead of the pc being necissary to process all audio... it still remains to be seen how much processing power will be necissary to do this sort of stuff.... studios I'm sure who are computerized audio would most certainly use a dedicated server for this function I would think...

don't get me wrong, if a realistic solution did arise, I would love to be able to ditch the alpine in my next install...., up until now... nothing yet...

I personally, if I had the drive to persue this further, would concentrate my efforts more on trying to interprate the ai-net buss, & attempt to interface my alpine 700 with the pc... be able to control it, as an external device... I don't know what advantage running all the audio processing on the carpc itself would have over this... & it may actually be a good thing as it being an external periferal...
..

the real question is, how much gain in sq can be gained, & at what cost, & I don't mean just money

time will tell

84RegalRider · 10-18-2006, 02:29 PM

See to me if i just buy something off the shelf (like a carputer) and just install it (2din or likewise) then it kinda doesnt make it a hobby. The whole custom aspect is what makes it fun.

RedGTiVR6 · 10-18-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by nubz69

I don't feel that it is to much to expect the software to at least do the basics of a $300 head unit.

Again, take a look at the size of this market. It's tiny.

I was just talking to a friend of mine who has been into home and car audio for years. Even had his own speaker company for a while and has competed in the Expert classes in USACi and IASCA. We debated back and forth for a few hours. I was asking if he knew of any software out there that included corss-over functionality. He was adamant that it simply wasn't needed in any of the major applications. I have to agree. Everything that we are trying to do here is something that can be done cheaper and more efficiently using a preexisting hardware solution. I'm trying to change that, not just sitting here complaining about it, hoping that someone does something about it.

Quote:

The hardware has not been much of a limitation for a long time, IMO.

Really? Show me a sound card (USB) that has processing AT LEAST equivilant to the Alpine 701 processor (note how I didn't say tuning abilities, but sound processing, D/As, opamps, etc. AND has at LEAST 8 rca outs that has 4+v voltage out).

Quote:

I do feel winamp is a bit behind when it comes to doing a serious IASCA level SQ install. If there is a way to be doing all this please let me know, it is possible that in my search for a front end I have managed to miss this software. RedGTI please point me in the right direction so I can research this more.

Yeah, it's called bit accurate. I've made quite a few posts about it on this very forum.

nubz69 · 10-18-2006, 07:06 PM

The size is tiny but it is growing. As the carputer becomes more capable I think more and more car audio/video enthusiasts will see it as a viable option.

Depending on how you are doing your install your buddy is right in saying that everything can be done with hardware. My point of contention is that using an outboard processor is a huge added cost and could be bypassed in software. There is quite a bit of crossover software for audiophiles and for audio production (just google crossover, filters and VST). Using an outboard processor also takes up space and adds yet another peice in the signal chain to degrade SQ.

Well I don't know why the output has to be USB. PCI, USB and firewire can all work well and there are multiple options depending which way you want to go. You can use a better CPU if you are worried about processing power. You don't need outboard DSP to do the processing and tuning needed in a car.

I actualy was not refering to bit accurate playback. That is only one of many problems I see that could be solved in the s/w domain of a carputer

RedGTiVR6 · 10-18-2006, 08:18 PM

The size has been growing for the past 4 years, that's nothing new. This many years later and now it's a spec of dust on the radar, so yeah, it is growing, before it just didn't come up.

For the longest time, turbo and I were the only audiophiles on here. Then Scott came around, and now there's probably 10 or so of us on here. Great, so 10 or so, who is going to code software for 10 or so people? It's going ot take a while longer before someone can see the reasoning behind investing that amount of time and money into a product like we're looking for.

Regarding the hardware set-up: I'm not just talking about car audio, I'm talking about audio in general. Professional Audio. Currently, no one is going to write universal software for a car audio environment. The place to look is in the professional audio relm. In the professional audio relm, there's no need for this kind of thing.

Show me a piece of crossover software? Have you seen the thread I've started regarding this whole thing? So far, we've found one that looks to be even remotely viable.

Why USB? There's not many people running a full tower in their car. Many people aren't even running cases. If you're not running a PC case, where are you going to secure a PCI card? If you are running one of the tiny cases, many times the use of the PCI card slot is put in a position in which running a bunch of RCAs isn't going to work very well.

What I'm seeing here is someone that is brand new to the CarPC scene. They have an idea about what they want but they haven't done the research yet to see what does or does not exist out there yet.

Do me a favor, if you know of all this software that's out there, why don't you post it? http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=88359

We could use more people actually working to improve the situation rather than just complaining about it.