Renault "Tuner List" Head Unit/CD changer hacking - Controls - Page 31

mox · 03-22-2006, 01:22 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Vicne

If I'm using 2N2222 transistors and CNY74-2 opto-couplers, do you think I need to adapt some resistor values ?

I can tell from experience that finding the proper pull-up resistor can be a real pain. I used to build and sell MIDI-interfaces in the past and even with optocouplers coming from the same batch, I couldn't find a single resistor value that would fit all, so I ended up using a potmeter. All problems were gone when I switched to Sharp PC900 optocouplers instead of TIL111/CNY17.

I'd borrow an oscilloscope again, Vicne. Or wait until I bring mine to help you out

Vicne · 03-22-2006, 02:29 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by mox

I can tell from experience that finding the proper pull-up resistor can be a real pain. I used to build and sell MIDI-interfaces in the past and even with optocouplers coming from the same batch, I couldn't find a single resistor value that would fit all, so I ended up using a potmeter. All problems were gone when I switched to Sharp PC900 optocouplers instead of TIL111/CNY17.

Jeez, isn't that sensitivity particular to MIDI ? Indeed, googling for "sharp PC-900" almost only gives results about MIDI.
I already bought a CNY17-2 so I think I'm going to try with it, first calculating a theoretic resistor value, then trying (on the breadboard) with a potentiometer set on that value and see the result...

Quote:

I'd borrow an oscilloscope again, Vicne. Or wait until I bring mine to help you out

Indeed, that would probably be useful if troubleshooting is needed. I'll tell you how it goes...
Thanks for the warning.

slimmegane · 03-22-2006, 04:39 PM

@Vicne, Do you have mode to test the strange problem of tracks?

Vicne · 03-23-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by slimmegane

@Vicne, Do you have mode to test the strange problem of tracks?

I could observe the problem indeed but it's not fixed yet. I definitely have to solve my hardware problems before I can go on with software.

pippolippi · 03-23-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Vicne

I definitely have to solve my hardware problems before I can go on with software.

One thing: since you're going to take out 12v from the pc for the relay, you could also use that to feed the optocoupler connected to rx, and use RTS exclusively for the relay. It should work even if referenced to ground, so you can also forget DTR.

jorgenuno04 · 03-23-2006, 06:30 PM

hello veryone,

I have this cable (see photo), and the idea is to connect a regular mp3 player to the radio through the 8 pin plug. I´ve already tryed and it doesn´t work. I believe that the pins aren´t the correct ones.

The cable has connections at pins 13, 14 and 15.

For what I´ve read in here, the correct pins are the 18, 19 an 20 being the 19 the GND, correct?

If this is wrong tell me how do I connect a mp3 player to the radio, please

Thank you

Jorge Silva

pippolippi · 03-24-2006, 01:37 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by jorgenuno04

hello veryone,

I have this cable (see photo), and the idea is to connect a regular mp3 player to the radio through the 8 pin plug. I´ve already tryed and it doesn´t work.

Because it's not supposed to work. Only newest model have an auxiliary input and it's the connector between the yellow and the blue one. If your radio doesn't have this connector and/or you cannot enable the aux input in the advanced menu it's not possible to do what you want.
You can read this thread and, following the reverse engineered protocol, build an interface (e.g. using a pic) to fake the presence of a compact disc changer and an analog to spdif converter (the blue connector has only an spdif input), then you can connect your mp3 player.

Putput · 03-24-2006, 03:24 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by jorgenuno04

hello veryone,

I have this cable (see photo), and the idea is to connect a regular mp3 player to the radio through the 8 pin plug. I´ve already tryed and it doesn´t work. I believe that the pins aren´t the correct ones.

As pippolippi stated in his post, its not suppose to work, Renault HU's uses the Blue Mini ISO connector to connect to a CDC and not an AUX input. Only an 'Update List' HU has a direct AUX input. If you have an Update List HU, look in the document I've attached to this post. It describes how to connect an AUX input to a Update List HU.
Good Luck!

***** DOCUMENT UPDATED *****

Vicne · 03-24-2006, 01:32 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Putput

If you have an Update List HU, look in the document I've attached to this post. It describes how to connect an AUX input to a Update List HU.

Very good document.
Just a note : maybe you should insist that Tuner List models, even with an emulator such as ours, still needs a Analog to SPDIF converter...

Vicne · 03-24-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by pippolippi

One thing: since you're going to take out 12v from the pc for the relay, you could also use that to feed the optocoupler connected to rx, and use RTS exclusively for the relay.

True, that'd probably be better

Quote:

It should work even if referenced to ground, so you can also forget DTR.

Mmmh, I'd be tempted to leave the negative DTR (you know, RS232 compliance and such :-) ).
I don't think it makes a problem to have positive via the PC power supply and negative via the DTR, does it ?

Edit : Btw, it seems obvious, but your circuit relies on the fact that the PC's serial port actually gives a negative voltage for low level of Tx. If the Tx is simply tied to the ground, it wont work of course... I think I remember that some laptops don't actually bother outputing negative voltage. Do you think we should care for that ?

Putput · 03-25-2006, 06:11 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Vicne

Very good document.
Just a note : maybe you should insist that Tuner List models, even with an emulator such as ours, still needs a Analog to SPDIF converter...

Ok, I'll change it later today, your right, people could think that it enables a standard audio input instead of SPDIF.

Ale · 03-25-2006, 12:01 PM

Hello, after some weeks here i'am!. working on the PIC firmaare but slowly (i do not have so much free time) finally i have the first PIC emulator!. The first test in the car pass ok, but after a few second the HU show LINK-ERR, if i restart the PIC the HU display TRACK CD 1, the track number is blank and after few second come back to LINK-ERR.
I don't know if is a hardware problem (the pullup of tx transistor) or a protocol error, becouse after the play cmd(HU 13h) i answer with these packet:

Code:

3D	C	2	21	5	17					
3D	D	6	20	1	3	9	5	1	19	
3D	E	6	20	1	3	9	5	1	1A					
3D	F	2	21	5	14									
3D	10	6	20	1	3	9	5	1	4					
3D	11	B	47	1	1	0	0	59	0	0	0	57	0	6E

Anyway i will arrange the project file (C languge with microchip 16f688)and post here a sample of the project the next week.
Bye
Ale

Vicne · 03-26-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Ale

Hello, after some weeks here i'am!. working on the PIC firmware but slowly (i do not have so much free time) finally i have the first PIC emulator!

Great !
Maybe that's not the first emulator as Peppuz seems to have had some success already (see here) - not counting the Connects2 guys :-) - but that's really encouraging.

Quote:

The first test in the car pass ok, but after a few second the HU show LINK-ERR, if i restart the PIC the HU display TRACK CD 1, the track number is blank and after few second come back to LINK-ERR.
I don't know if is a hardware problem (the pullup of tx transistor) or a protocol error, becouse after the play cmd(HU 13h) i answer with these packet:

Code:

3D	C	2	21	5	17					
3D	D	6	20	1	3	9	5	1	19	
3D	E	6	20	1	3	9	5	1	1A					
3D	F	2	21	5	14									
3D	10	6	20	1	3	9	5	1	4					
3D	11	B	47	1	1	0	0	59	0	0	0	57	0	6E

This seems to be correct, and the fact that the HU accepts to switch to CDC confirms that, so I doubt it's a hardware problem... Are you sure your emulator goes on sending frames like the last one every second (with incrementing ID and corresponding FCS) ? In all cases, the HU showing LINK ERR seems to be due to the HU "timing out" because it didn't receive an "I'm alive" (either 47=PLAYING or 20=STATUS) frame in time (e.g. it's the case if you cut the Tx line with the an actual CDC plugged)

Quote:

Anyway i will arrange the project file (C languge with microchip 16f688)and post here a sample of the project the next week.

Yes, please do. You're still definitely on the contest to be the first to publish your PIC-based emulator how-to :-)
And anyway, like for the PC-based emulator, I think that for now, the more versions we have the better.
Keep on the good work.

Vicne · 03-26-2006, 05:17 PM

Well, guys, I finally proudly announce that my hardware adapter reached its final version. I'll post the details in the next few days, but apart from some values and the relay switching, it's exactly Pippolippi's design. It's now in place in the car, the HU and PC are back at their place and I could check all the functionality with the sound coming from the PC that was actually emulating the CDC :-). And well, it's cool.

I've also improved the Java emulator : fixed numbering above track 16 and a brand new "contextual" event mapping Plugin called RRExtendedPlugin, among other things, allowing NEXT/PREV to change track in the AUDIO screen and Zoom in/out in GPS screen (this is even cooler :-) ). It's in CVS but not yet "packed".

However, playing intensely with the emulator, I observed several things :
- the duplicate frames are really frequent, and sometimes up to the point where the HU increments the ID, so we cannot distinguish them from a second separate command...
- the HU can become so saturated that it doesn't acknowledge commands (or not quickly enough). After 3 missed tries, I consider HU was switched off and I reset the emulator, causing false "HU_OFF" events
- Saturating further, I succeeded in "crashing" the HU 2 or 3 times. Well, it's not really crashed, it remains on CDC position, it still acknowledges PLAYING frames, but SPDIF is muted and it does not send any command to the PC anymore. Turning the HU off and back on restores the normal behaviour.

I really think there's a timing problem behind those problems. Maybe we should insert a delay between frames we send or make the emulator half-duplex (currently, it is multi-threaded and full-duplex : it can send a frame while receiving a command, for example)

Well, enough for today. I'm happy the hardware part is behind me because that definitely was the hardest from my point of view.

Have a nice day/evening/morning

pippolippi · 03-27-2006, 01:39 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Vicne

- the HU can become so saturated that it doesn't acknowledge commands (or not quickly enough). After 3 missed tries, I consider HU was switched off and I reset the emulator, causing false "HU_OFF" events

I saw something similar, so removing the optocoupler that indicates that the HU is on wasn't actually a good idea

Quote:

- Saturating further, I succeeded in "crashing" the HU 2 or 3 times. Well, it's not really crashed, it remains on CDC position, it still acknowledges PLAYING frames, but SPDIF is muted and it does not send any command to the PC anymore. Turning the HU off and back on restores the normal behaviour.

same here and...

Quote:

I really think there's a timing problem behind those problems. Maybe we should insert a delay between frames we send or make the emulator half-duplex (currently, it is multi-threaded and full-duplex : it can send a frame while receiving a command, for example)

...my program is not multithreaded (though the rs232 input buffer can receive data while transmitting).
In my latest (unreleased) test version, after sending a packet I check if the reply is 3d, in that case I receive that packet (that the HU sent at the same time I was sending mine) and then go on to see if I get the c5. I retry to send the packet several times if I don't receive the c5.
The problem is that this approach hasn't been very successful, but I hadn't time to investigate further. As in your case I get no more commands from the HU but it is happily acknowledging my messages.
Oh, just for the record, I'm also sending every possible command (0,1,2,....) each time I pull the stalk control (just to check if there's some command that we could use) and I found that if I send 21 (15 hex) the HU displays 'HI TEMP' and stops sending commands to the cdc.