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06-05-2006, 01:33 AM
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#272
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Raw Wave
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,800
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Quote: Originally Posted by Silentbob343
Good googling!
Thanks.
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06-05-2006, 07:21 AM
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#273
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Raw Wave
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,800
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Well, got it to work. It's pretty sharp for such a tiny image. It's a little rotated, but I think it's because I dissassembled it before realizing the "bulb" wasn't a bulb but rather the CRT. I think I can fix it though.
Didn't have much luck trying to get a pic though. It just overwhelms the camera with no flash, and with flash, it drowns out the pic.
I'm off to bed now, but hopefully I can do some tests trying to project it later tonight.
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06-06-2006, 12:50 AM
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#274
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Newbie
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4
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Projector idea
OK, my latest lousy idea; now even more expensive!
http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/m...pt_ct_car.html
This puppy and a couple of first-surface mirrors...well, maybe not.
Anyone got a TV or even slide projector to see what happens?
There's some question in my mind as to whether focusing it to a distance of, say 20 feet, allows your eyes to focus at 20 feet, or if you have to focus it on the windshield, and the focal length is the distance from the LCD to the windshield.
I must read more on optics. Wonder if I can dig up a copy of the HUD design book...
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06-06-2006, 01:00 AM
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#275
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Maximum Bitrate
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 520
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Quote: Originally Posted by shotgunefx
Well, got it to work. It's pretty sharp for such a tiny image. It's a little rotated, but I think it's because I dissassembled it before realizing the "bulb" wasn't a bulb but rather the CRT. I think I can fix it though.
Didn't have much luck trying to get a pic though. It just overwhelms the camera with no flash, and with flash, it drowns out the pic.
I'm off to bed now, but hopefully I can do some tests trying to project it later tonight.
Now you must get a camcorder and make a video of it working 
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06-06-2006, 02:42 AM
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#276
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Newbie
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 30
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Hmmmm, am quite excited about using these camcorder viewfinders. I'm guessing the image will have to be mirrored though if your projecting the image forward onto your windscreen?
Is there anything I should look for when getting a broken camcorder from Ebay?
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06-06-2006, 02:58 AM
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#277
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Raw Wave
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,800
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Quote: Originally Posted by Silentbob343
Now you must get a camcorder and make a video of it working
Easier said then done. When videotaping it, you can basically see the retrace, so you have a big dark band that slowly crawls over the screen.
Best I could do was to hold up one of those projection lenses and snap a photo of that.
Between holding the projection lens, and the camera, this is the sharpest I could get.
Quote: Originally Posted by jammy_basturd
Hmmmm, am quite excited about using these camcorder viewfinders. I'm guessing the image will have to be mirrored though if your projecting the image forward onto your windscreen?
Is there anything I should look for when getting a broken camcorder from Ebay?
No idea, and I'm not so sure about how useful it will be towards this specific problem. If that's why you want one, might want to hold off.
Hard to find much info, but from the very limited info I could find, looks like sony cams with these types of view finders are "somewhat" similar. So what will work, who knows. Well except for this cam (CCD-FX411). 
Some need additional signals (hsync, etc) which would complicate things. I'd probably look for an older Sony, but again, unless you have another pressing need for a .4" CRT, I'd wait.
On the plus side, there's a lot of other good stuff in this camera, the CCD, lenses, etc. Have to finish stripping it down one of these days and see what else I can salvage.
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06-06-2006, 04:12 AM
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#278
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Raw Wave
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,800
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Just figured something out. Decided to try the viewfinder lens itself to project it. Works great, can project it to the wall a few inches away or to the ceiling. It's dim, but less dim than the nitemax projected with the built in backlight.
On the bad side, I'm getting more convinced that a properly projected hud displaying video is a no go.
Has anyone ever seen a video HUD? I mean anywhere? I see the F18 has some overlays and whatnot, but they don't look like regular video and seem limited to certain colors.
If you go and read that link above on the fighter huds, especially the later ones that have more then monochromatic symbols, it appears even with all that money, research and advanced optics, they don't get it either. That can't be bode well for us doing it.
I still can't get around the projection source being seen and I can't think of an arrangment that would allow the projected image to be seen, but not the source. Probably something I'm missing though.
Maybe it's time to get a Psone or slightly larger LCD and just aim for reflection. That will work for some stuff, but probably a distraction if you have any illusions of overlaying the road ahead.
I wonder if you could fake the focus in software. Basically munge the screen in realtime so it appears in focus when you're looking off.
Even if it's possible, that would be pretty heavy cpu wise, thought you could optimize it as the transform is static. If this is possible, it's probably the best route IMHO.
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06-06-2006, 04:28 AM
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#279
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Maximum Bitrate
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 520
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Quote: Originally Posted by shotgunefx
Just figured something out. Decided to try the viewfinder lens itself to project it. Works great, can project it to the wall a few inches away or to the ceiling. It's dim, but less dim than the nitemax projected with the built in backlight.
On the bad side, I'm getting more convinced that a properly projected hud displaying video is a no go.
Has anyone ever seen a video HUD? I mean anywhere? I see the F18 has some overlays and whatnot, but they don't look like regular video and seem limited to certain colors.
If you go and read that link above on the fighter huds, especially the later ones that have more then monochromatic symbols, it appears even with all that money, research and advanced optics, they don't get it either. That can't be bode well for us doing it.
I still can't get around the projection source being seen and I can't think of an arrangment that would allow the projected image to be seen, but not the source. Probably something I'm missing though.
Maybe it's time to get a Psone or slightly larger LCD and just aim for reflection. That will work for some stuff, but probably a distraction if you have any illusions of overlaying the road ahead.
I wonder if you could fake the focus in software. Basically munge the screen in realtime so it appears in focus when you're looking off.
Even if it's possible, that would be pretty heavy cpu wise, thought you could optimize it as the transform is static. If this is possible, it's probably the best route IMHO.
Well, on a really long shot I can try to email a guy that works for Lockheed Martin on the F-22 doing systems integration. I wouldn't count on anything more than yes we have a video capable HUD or no we don't. Definitely wouldn't get any details out of him.
As far as the projection source being seen...maybe some sort of complex mirror arrangement
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06-06-2006, 04:48 AM
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#280
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Raw Wave
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,800
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Quote: Originally Posted by Silentbob343
Well, on a really long shot I can try to email a guy that works for Lockheed Martin on the F-22 doing systems integration. I wouldn't count on anything more than yes we have a video capable HUD or no we don't. Definitely wouldn't get any details out of him.
As far as the projection source being seen...maybe some sort of complex mirror arrangement
I wouldnt' bother unless it's for your own interests. Even if they do, it still puts it far out of our reach. Just reading about the F18 system and the optics...
As far as the projection, that's what's getting me. I've experimented with several different things, but I could always see it off the collimnator. Then again on those planes, the hud projectors are high up and facing upwards. Maybe there's a reason for that beyond cramped space.
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06-06-2006, 05:01 AM
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#281
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Newbie
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 30
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I still don't think I quite understand what the problem is? Is it that your getting a double image?
How is your system currently set up? You have the CRT/LCD going through a lense being displayed on the collimnator?
Really wish I had some of the stuff readily available here in England so I could experiement around a bit!
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06-06-2006, 05:36 AM
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#282
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Raw Wave
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,800
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Quote: Originally Posted by jammy_basturd
I still don't think I quite understand what the problem is? Is it that your getting a double image?
How is your system currently set up? You have the CRT/LCD going through a lense being displayed on the collimnator?
Really wish I had some of the stuff readily available here in England so I could experiement around a bit!
I don't really have a setup per se. I've just been trying different things to find something workable.
A few setups I've experimented with...
LCD on dash reflecting onto collimnator
LCD projected through projected lens
Viewfinder CRT projected.
It's worse than a double image. The projection source is a lot brighter than the image. So you see an image and then a comparatively sun-like object (the lens) on the screen. Had the same problem when trying to project the lcd only worse as it was a much bigger lens.
I'm sure you've come across projectors in person (slide,film,etc). Picture looking into where the image comes out and how bright it is. That's what's showing up.
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06-06-2006, 06:04 AM
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#283
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Newbie
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 30
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So the problem would seem to be, to put it in terms even I can understand, is that the light source seems to over power the image. If you decrease the intensity of the light, the image would be projected to dimly and so the best solution would be to make the image as 'contrasty' as possible, hence why the alphanumeric type of HUDs we see OEM in cars work so well...
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06-06-2006, 12:39 PM
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#284
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Constant Bitrate
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boston,MA
Posts: 204
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Throughout my experiments I found out that projecting was really hard exactly for the same reason. Plus it need space. I am very close in abandoning this project to be honest basically because I don't have the space in my dash to fit ANY type of system without truly gutting it. But I did find out some very interesting things by trial and error. By using two Fresnel lenses of different power on top of an LCD you can magnify the image AND focus it in the distance. This is something like the projectors do. Also this will diffuse the light of the LCD and will probably diminish the double image effect to minimum and you can also use a smaller LCD since you magnify it which means less space needed. I also tried a polarized film on the windshield which worked perfectly but then you have this dark piece of film on the windshield, not acceptable by me. The best colimnator i tried was the HUB glass from Electronic Goldmine, it has a pinkish hew and you can still see it in front of you but at least it is very transparent. If I was going forward with this I would use the Fresnel lenses and the windshield.
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06-06-2006, 08:01 PM
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#285
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Newbie
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4
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Hdd?
OK, another stupid interjection:
http://www.rickleephoto.com/rlcoll.htm
How about ditching the HUD part, and just projecting from the LCD onto a single fresnel lens? OK, it kills the overlay (which apparently we're not having much luck with) but as a benefit, it does away with the double-image problem (if you angle the lens at the right angle).
Something like this (pardon my ASCII art - ognore horizontal lines to preserve spacing)
__/ <- windshield
_/__\ <- fresnel lens
/____\
\ <-LCD
It doesn't give you the overlay, and poses some issues for protecting the LCD from sunlight, but it might give you part of what you're looking for. I would fear for the legality of raising the top of the screen above the line-of-sight to the front of the hood though.
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