Project NiteVision - NiteMax + HUD + carputer - Page 2

rotarypower101 · 04-04-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by alti

thanks, guys.

sama, will be even cooler if using your software it can identify and warn me of objects in the road

(Even though the car will be moving)

software is where the real fun will be had

for all those curious check out this thread....

http://mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=73065

Did you happen to catch the autonomous car “great challenge “

The winner used almost pure software to detect object in a 3 part layered scan that searched for the best path for the vehicle to travel, maybe there are remnants or previous versions of the software open to the public you can dig up.

quantum · 04-04-2006, 09:36 PM

Hey Genisisfactor,

Good call, and I am totally impressed on your angle of incidence / angle of relfection statement. I am an optics professor in a college, this is exactly my bag, baby! Light, sight, and manipulating the visible spectrum.

It's also EXACTLY why I believe I can do this without anything like a film or tint on the windshield as a screen (at least for starters), like I was saying above. However, I will probably experiment.

Basically, the angle of incidence needs to be greater than the critical angle of 90 degrees, which will give 100% internal reflection. The index of glass is 1.52 - 1.53. In a car windshield, there is also the laminate sandwiched in between, which would have a slightly different "N" (N = Index of Refraction).

With that being said, and rather than whipping out all my formulas, I have just angled the LCD back and forth until I found the best combination of driver visability and lack of external noticability. Just by chance, I think I found it, but it really has to do with the rake of the winshield relative to the position of the monitor under it. Each situation will be different. And I don't think it will be totally invisible to the outside world, but as little as possible.

There is more on Critical Angles here:
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSC...rn/u14l3c.html

NiteMax Mark · 04-04-2006, 11:45 PM

It seems to me that with the reflection or refraction there's two things you're trying to solve at one time...

The first is: "How do I get a viewable image to appear at the base of my windshield." My feeling is that this will happen by reflecting the video image off of the glass itself if you get the correct mounting angle. You can determine the angle by calculation or experiment. (Or use an experiment to validate your calculations.)

The second is: "How do I keep the outside world from seeing the display." I think the best solution will monopolize on the fact that the light from an LCD is polarized. I'd stick a polorizing filter on the inside of the windhsield. From inside or out, this patch will look transparent. The catch is that the light from the LED won't pass through it and only the LCD will be effectively "blacked out." If the surface of the polarizing filter is sufficiently shinny, you'll get a reflected image off of its surface and none of the light from the LCD will pass through.

(It's a really neat blanking out effect using the polarizing filter! If you've ever looked at an LCD screen while wearing polarizing sun glasses, you'll see how the LCD goes black when it's turned to the correct orientation.)

alti · 04-05-2006, 12:06 AM

Thanks Mark, that is great idea!

@ rotarypower101 - ya, I think that is the race across the dessart right? last time i had checked in on the website (a year or more ago i think) no one had ever finished the race at that time if memory serves. I will google that info though, thanks!!

@quantum - I noticed you are planning to mount your ccd and lens outside in the grill. What do you have planned to deal with road grime and weather?

Genesisfactor · 04-05-2006, 07:23 AM

@mark- its a 45 degree turn that will do it as that's how its constructed

. The liquid in the display hax a charge that runs through it and changes its polarized orientation or something. Google it, they giv eyou a better explaination than me trying to remember things (you know how good i am at that these days). I will assume the surface is shiny. My idea was to maybe elctrocally shift a second peice of tint at a minute angle, darkening the desired area for an ample darkspot for reflection.

BTW, i'm ready to complete the order

. Gotta love bdays!

@quantum- thanks! I think you and i need to talk a bit more, i'm going to you for advice then!

.

Yeah, i'm glad a professor agreeing with me on that film idea

. Makes me feel like i'm the right track. To everyone else, the light's angle change goes to 0 when its a palendropic (if that's not a word, just add it) composite situation- a palendrome is a word liek radar or racecar, so guess what happens in that sitation- (air, glass, laminate, glass, air), although place where the light exits may not be the same (can vary by factions of millimeters to factions of inches as the light is being redirected). What you do to change that is to add soemthing that changes the sitaution (air tint glass laminate glass air). In that case, we can use the properties (this goes beyond the angles into other things) of the tint to change the reflection angles of the composite. THis can allow us to thne shine a light at an angle that almost no one outside can see, and hopefully returns it at an angle that everyone on the inside can see. (please correct any mistakes, as i haven't seen this since freshman year!)

There's this Xray film that seems to be promising, but i'm at a loss on how and why (some speical property in it, but i think my researcher teacher mistook what i needed it to do). However, my confusion is mostly because i haven't gotten my hands on the stuff yet

.

lol...yeah...as a mech, we learn that sometimes trail and error usually kicks equations' butt!

My question is this: How much does the screen enlarge as the glass is technically concave, even though the distance always the light to speard a bit. Also, is there a way to make it so that we can get the virtual focus past the windshield, like a holosight AND still be able to see it if we focus at that point? This way it REALLY looks like the screen is projected and we can still keep an eye on the road. Plus its cool

@everyone. well...the ATI tv wonder sucks. Only has coax in, unlike the cards. I'll have to find another PVR with RCA in.

@alti...how come the monkey gets a gun an i turned 21 monday and i don't have one. I hate NY sometimes... Oh, and someone finished the race this year. I believe it was the SUV. I'm mounting the CCD in front of the rear view mirror or on the dash. I think i have a pic in my worklogs.

Genesisfactor · 04-05-2006, 02:55 PM

Hey alti, i'm curious, would you be interested in a film that was gerenally clear or really sjut no film at all? How about securing the nitemax at a desired angle, can you show a layout/disclose the part you ripped out of some item to make the tray?

Also, have you experimented using a toggle switch for the CCDs? how about the nitemax system, is it going to be button press on/on while held like some flashlights, or just continuous on/off as it is now? Are we doing steerng wheel controls?

BTW...this is YOUR thread, so i'm going to move my comments, questions, research, and stuff back to my threads

. Don't want to look like i'm trying to take it over!

Also IBMS rock, which model is that?? Love them. Is that your carputer?

shotgunefx · 04-05-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by NiteMax Mark

I can't tell from your parts which CCD Board you have, but the Color one can produce mirrored output and the LCD Controller itself supports mirror too.(It is there in the thread somewhere.)

Also: If you're feeding 12v DC regulated into your project box to power everything, you won't actually need the Power Supply Board. The only thing LCD related that the Power Supply Board provides is LCD Contrast Adjustment. This can be replace with a 5k Ohm Potentiometer instead.

The Camera itself will work fine with 12v DC too.

Has anyone ever played with the Digital Potentiometers? Done properly, it would be possible to control the LCD Brightness and Contrast from your PC!

I haven't, but another thing you could do is use a PIC microcontroller to drive a transistor via Pulse Width Modulation to provide dimming as well. A bonus is that it's fairly easy to get it to communicate with a PC via RS232.

For under $20, you could get an 18pin Olimex protoboard that has everything (voltage regulator, comm port, max232, 20mhz crystal, etc) all wired up and ready to program. Just need to run TX/RX to the MAX232 and the hardware is done. PWM is easy to generate in software or just get a pic that has a CCP module and it can generate the PWM signals for you.

If you went with the 16F877A and a 40-pin board, you'd get eight levels of ADC too and 32 IO pins overall. Plus two CCP modules.

You need a programmer too, but they can be had for as cheap as $10.

If you're not an assembler guy, you can use Hi-Tech C's free version (PIC Lite), just make sure you get a PIC that's supported in the free version.

alti · 04-05-2006, 11:52 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

Hey alti, i'm curious, would you be interested in a film that was gerenally clear or really sjut no film at all? How about securing the nitemax at a desired angle, can you show a layout/disclose the part you ripped out of some item to make the tray?

Are you refering to film on the windshield to aid in the reflection of the LCD? If so I want it to be clear as possible, as I am pretty anal about things working to OEM specs, (using a polymer wedge in the windsheild does not change the clarity of the caddy windshield for example) however I am willing to comprimise when i have to. I did not follow what you meant here : "How about securing the nitemax at a desired angle, can you show a layout/disclose the part you ripped out of some item to make the tray?"

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

Also, have you experimented using a toggle switch for the CCDs? how about the nitemax system, is it going to be button press on/on while held like some flashlights, or just continuous on/off as it is now? Are we doing steerng wheel controls?

Do you mean have a color and b/w CCD and lens mounted with a toggle switch to select between them? if that is what you meant then no, I had not considered it until I read your post earlier today, and i that that it is a pretty good idea, the project box I am mounting the ccd and lens in could fint two and a switch. For the system as a whole I had planed on making a on/off switch for the HUD and also a brightness control for the lcd. The whole thing will be powered from a POL or small opus up front, I need more power for usb and my dvd slot drive anyway. I plan on having the rest of it powered (except the lcd) when the car is on, this way i can still use the system on my touchscreen during the day. In part to play with/build the software mentioned earlier in the thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

BTW...this is YOUR thread, so i'm going to move my comments, questions, research, and stuff back to my threads

. Don't want to look like i'm trying to take it over!

dude, no worries, I might be upset if you started posting that you started a project to send a lemon to mars and then 800 people got in a fight whether or not it was a good idea to do that, because it might be a better use of the lemon to make lemonaid. But everything here is very on topic and useful, and is helping me as well, post it up!!! its all good stuff!

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

Also IBMS rock, which model is that?? Love them. Is that your carputer?

Its a T42, now that i have had a IBM LT i will never own another, worth every penny. I have 1400x1050 screen that you can see at any angle to, it is amazing, so bright and clear. It is not my carputer though, I use a ideq 200N with a athlon mobile 35w 2400+ for that

quantum · 04-06-2006, 01:03 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by alti

@quantum - I noticed you are planning to mount your ccd and lens outside in the grill. What do you have planned to deal with road grime and weather?

Take a look about halfway down this page to see my weatherproof enclosure:
http://mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthre...t=68370&page=9

It works great! The plexi cover keeps all the grit off the front surface of the camera lens. I have also mounted a curved front lens (non RX so it won't affect the focus) to the front with a hydrophobic (water don't stick) coating. Lastly, I am going to tap into my windshied washer tank with a mini pump and switch so a I can give it a spritz while driving if need be. You'll need something to protect the lens though.

GenesisFactor:
One thing that needs to be considered with the critical angle theory is we are dealing with a large output of light from the LCD, not just a point source with a single ray of light, and also the relative position and viewing angle of the eyes outside. (damn theories)

What I am getting at is even if one ray or a few rays are at critical angles, many would be hitting the glass at non critical angles, thereby reflecting some light, and refracting the rest through the windshield. Toss in the concave nature of the glass and you add another element. As you say, what goes through can be seen.

I think by combining polarized sheets like in the link below with the best combination of angle and reflection on the LCD is the way to go.
http://www.3dlens.com/polarizer.htm But alti is right, making it as clear as possible is the key.

I read somewhere that celophane has polarized properties. I need to verify that a little for this use, but wouldn't it be great to go to the Hallmark store and get your night vision screen for about 2 bucks?

Genesisfactor · 04-06-2006, 10:04 AM

I still haven't mastered the cool art of quoting, so i just make things as brief or as confusing as i can. Let's see which i pick for today!

@ alti
I mean the little tray with the LCD in the pics. How do you keep it ast the desired angle and where did you get it?

I like the toggle switch idea because it doesn't over stimulate, but ives you the functionality you need and desire at your finger tips. Plus i'm a cheapie

Amen, my IBM brother! IBMs are worth every penny and a half, assuming you don't break the screen

(they aren't covered and sometimes over a grand a piece). They're so good, they make Windows look good. I'm slowly reconsidering an R51 broken screen to my Transnote (both IBMs). However if i do that, my transnote won't have any use again...

As for me posting, as long as i'm invited, though sending a lemon to mars is an intriguing conversation. Someone should make a poll...should the lemon go to mars, or should it be used as lemonade...

@quantum
Hehe, hallmark is too expensive! jk jk! $2? That would be great. I can beg my mom for $2.

Yeah...and that's where college physics left off :P. hehe. I had some questions, that one about the glass being concave and killing out critcal angles, you answered though. Damn theory indeed!

THey've crammed so much theory in our heads, we can't even come up with a theory on if its all worth it. On with the questions!

1) What about the screen distortion, how do we solve that? Should we get a lens in place or should we suck it up? If we get a lens, how will we adjust it? I'm wondering if there's a way taht we can get the modes in monitors that affect the screen's geometry

2) Is there any way we can somehow get the image to focus, atleast to us, out side of the windshield for optimal viewing conditions?

3) how much would ti cost to make a customed optic for the windshiled to make it so that it doesn't go through? Way, is that even possible?

4) Are you using a the 2.5" lcds or a 7" lcd? I'm using the 7" for the HUD for the screen. For now, i'll be using my x50 (not v) to remotely connect with and control the carputer. Yes, it means no videos for now, but seriously...not while i'm driving! Plus it alliows for me to lay another foundation for a future implementation. Yes its secures, as XP's terminal service client only allows one user at a time

. If i'm not on, no one else in my neightborhood is smart enough, and the one guy who is doen't care enough, to log in

.

BTW quantum, where are you located?

@ mark
Hehe, after much deliberation, lostreciept and i have come up with our lists. lol...all i have to say is: thank GOD i'm doing this project as its hopefully going to be 1/3 - 1/2 the price of a touch screen, and by our talks last night, we're going to be penny pinching or a while, no matter what!! THanks again though for everything. I really hope this and my other projects with the nitemax turn out aweosme enough for you to be proud of!

adaminc · 04-06-2006, 11:00 AM

I was thinking about back, say 6-7 years ago, when I used to make fake id's for me and my friends, we always had the problem of the dreaded hologram on the drivers license, until I found a paint called interference gold (there are other interference colors) anyways, its hardly noticable at 1 angle, and at another angle, it looks like like shiny gold (worked well enough to fool bouncers and bartenders), now I wonder if this would work to reflect a display, just mix some of it in with a clear basecoat, make a rectangular stencil, and paint it on, if it doesnt work, you can use acetone/varsol to clean it off.

Just a thought

Genesisfactor · 04-06-2006, 11:22 AM

adaminc...you're my new friend

Oh yeah, the paint idea for the widnshield is cool too

. i'm going to check that out!

alti · 04-06-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

@ alti
I mean the little tray with the LCD in the pics. How do you keep it ast the desired angle and where did you get it?

I like the toggle switch idea because it doesn't over stimulate, but ives you the functionality you need and desire at your finger tips. Plus i'm a cheapie

oh that , I dont know exacty how it will end up yet, because i am still designing it

I made progress today on building the lens and CCD enclosure, and i will definatly update this thread with pictures and how i built it ect. No part of what i am doing is top secret and I intend on sharing my progress and findings

Quote: Originally Posted by Genesisfactor

Amen, my IBM brother! IBMs are worth every penny and a half, assuming you don't break the screen

(they aren't covered and sometimes over a grand a piece). They're so good, they make Windows look good. I'm slowly reconsidering an R51 broken screen to my Transnote (both IBMs). However if i do that, my transnote won't have any use again...

agreed

the transnote looks like it was awesome, I will have to watch ebay to see if one comes up one day, it will probibly end up being a peice of computer history

Genesisfactor · 04-08-2006, 04:06 AM

hopefully it does

. The lemon thread seems to be going well. We're 1/32 of the way to 800!

I other news, for he first time i regretted getting something becuse it worked too well and not good enough. Got my ppc to connect via wifi with remote desktop yesterday (XP's netmeeting-like thing). I was chattng a bit with shadowfangs on it. I now wish i got the VGA model. Resolution is too small at 320 x 240. I bumped up the resolution with a new display driver, but, then it got too small and blurry to be usable (@800 x 600) I'll try 640 x 480, but that's VGA res right there and it would be great to natively support that...plus if it did, 800 x 640 would be no problem

Anyways, i bring that up because it would be very cool, and very worth it, to pick up an x50v with vga cable and, get this, use it as a wireless monitor for all passengers, and when docked with the cable, become another way to input commands to to computer. I know i'm jumping the gun here nd assuming everything with the HUD will work, plus you got this HUGE 10.4" screen in your altima, but still, imagine an auxillary screen that can be passed around the car, a control panel if you will, to harness and exploit your carputer's ability. I'm going to try it on BT next, to free up the wifi.

Genesisfactor · 04-08-2006, 04:15 AM

I'm sorry, this is just unbearably cool. I'm sending this post from the ppc, logged into my desktop.