Software options for Tuning - Page 6

turbocad6 · 10-27-2006, 10:45 AM

if this is like not too processor intensive, man... this will be the next great thing in carputer audio, & maybe even car audio in general.... the alpines are great, but there not the end all/ be all

... it would have to be super impressive to have everything controlled through the pc.....

durwood · 10-27-2006, 11:52 AM

Yes when I tested the 31 band EQ with winamp I didn't see any real extra prcoessor load. And it seemed very stable and quality seemed very well just by listening to it.

Now, if you have an audiocard compatiple with the KXproject drivers, I tested the crossover function and it seemed to work pretty well, easy to adjust, but its going to be hard to use on a small screen. (Turbo you will probably be ok

) The problem lies in the time delay plugin for KX. The simple small delay uses too much of the resources because it uses 2400 samples ~ 50ms which only allows you to use 3 "small time delay" instances. I think at most 10ms is plenty. If the plugin dsp programmer gurus of kx can knock the sample size down to a fifth of that, then we are getting closer. Another downside to the ufx plugins for kx, is the crossover option is either 12 or 24dB and the lowest freq is 40Hz. I would like to see at least 6,12,18,24 and be able to go as low as 30Hz on the crossover.

Here's what I envison...

ASIO drivers-> ASIO compatible sound card-> Kx driver compatible sound card (Time delay,crossover)->Winamp->Winamp vst plugin->31 band vst plugin EQ

Has anyone tried the foobar player with the dsp plugins?

EDIT:
For those using the creative sound cards, I saw a winamp plugin that resamples BEFORE it gets to the soundcard so that it is more accurate than the hardware doing it. It sounds like a bandaid for the 44.1-48kHz resampling problem. Has anyone tried it? I guess its process intensive from a review.

Older resampling plugin
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=141806

New Resampling plugin
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=144826

RedGTiVR6 · 10-27-2006, 01:07 PM

durwood - great input!

your edit reminds me of an issue I was having trouble working through in my head.

If we do all of the processing on the computer, that means that we will be pretty much stuck with 48kHz.

Most of you know that I have been researching bit-accurate/bit-perfect playback in a bit of detail.

Then it hit me (don't you hate it when you overlook something so incredibly obvious!>)....it's not a bit-perfect stream if you tune on the computer....

but wouldn't it still make sense to strive for bit perfect in just about every aspect so that you know you are getting the true 44.1kHz rate before any processing? then you process the sound, and spit it out, making sure windows doesn't resample it to 48kHz then either...

is any of that coherent? anyone have any input?

turbocad6 · 10-27-2006, 01:11 PM

?????? when it comes to this stuff I gotta duck, cause it's just a bit over my head

I do plan on doing a bit of research & starting with your bit perfect leads though.... I gotta learn more of the digital end of this I guess....

durwood · 10-27-2006, 02:26 PM

My brain hurts

I am digging back into the depths of my mind trying to recal what I learned in school 4 years ago about sampling theories and dsp...if only I had my books that are locked up in my storage unit. I am going to have to roll this around the old noggin this weekend.

Here is something else to chew on along with the "bit-perfect discussion" taken from the winamp creative soundcard resampling plugin:

Quote:

[The SBLive! issue]

SBLive! has a low quality resample to 48KHz algoritm (or multirate filter
kernel too small...) maybe because to keep low latency to audio stream ...

This is the SBLive! (and not only) problem:

absolutely any audio stream is converted to 48KHz.
the worst performance is 44.1KHz audio streams (cd audio).

Audigy has the same issue except it resamples to 96000Hz but still
kernel size too small so 1% IMD at 16KHz for Audigy2 (www.tomshardware.com)

[The solution:]

my high quality resample to 48KHz (or any >= 48000, that means 96000Hz too)
component for Winamp3.

Testing results:

using SBLive! to resample to 48000:
19KHz IMD=20%
18KHz IMD=10%
16KHz IMD=5%
14KHz IMD=1%
You don't believe me ...???? I've included in component pack generated tones
used in my test versions of 44100Hz and 48000Hz ... Should sound the same !!!

using my component for KernelLength=16000 samples:
19KHz IMD=0.01%
18KHz IMD=0.001% ; can't measure less than this
16KHz IMD=0%

CPU Load:
<14% on Duron 825MHz for KernelSize 16000
<5% on Duron 825MHz for KernelSize 6000
<1% on AthlonXP2000+ for KernelSize 20000

[known issues]
there are no known issues

<TargetSampleRate> specifies resample target frequency of filter (should be
48000 for SBLive! cards, 96000 for Audigy, and this must be the working
Samplerate of the DSP on your soundcard!!!

<KernelSize> is the multirate kernel filter length in samples of the lowpass
filter. Here are some hints for 48000&96000:
16000 samples for quality described above
6000 samples are enough for 0.1% IMD @ 19KHz and no audible IMD
(IMD is above 20khz and should be rejected by the hardware
lowpass filter of your soundcard)
altering this results:
higher KernelSize => higher quality more CPU load.
lower KernelSize => lower quality less CPU load.
don't alter this if you do not know what means this or if you do not check
the results on a spectrum analyzer!
I've used as spectrum analyzer Goldwave 4.23 and CoolEdit2000 to measure
IMD. To record result just loopback your soundcard output to Line-In and
view the result over SpectrumAnalyzer in realtime.

[some hints]
If you really want your SBLive/Audigy/Audigy2 to sound perfect I recommand you
to download and install KX Drivers wich you can find at: www.kxproject.com.
These drivers are opensource and also freeware.
Best sound : KX Drivers + SBLive!Bugfix plugin. Try it!

[Contact:]
email: adi111p@yahoo.com

P.S. Haven't you noticed that DVD movies (sampled to 48000Hz) sounded perfect
on your sound system and Audio CD's didn't????? This is why!

another advice: Use KX drivers for SBLive and Audigy and Audigy2 soundcards. You will get
professional EQ-s, filters, 5.1,6.1,7.1 Decoders, but you will need some time to understand
how to configure it

download it from www.kxproject.com

EDIT: IMD=Intermodulation Distortion (Distortion/inaccuracies from using too small of a sample size during the resampling phase)

The plugin resamples before it gets to the soundcard so the soundcard doesn't create the distortion from my understanding...unless I misinterpreted what he is trying to say.

FyreDaug · 10-27-2006, 02:30 PM

I have a question, winamp has its own EQ built in (which sucks mind you) but when it was new to me I was trying it out a while ago and I could never get it to sound good. I had to crank up the bass a little (eq'ing by ear) and it would always sound messy. As soon as eq was gone, BOOM it sounded better. The cure for this problem was a 10band eq, called 4front eq and there it worked much much better, and I actually used this eq in my last carputer setup with winamp, but its 1 octave so tuning was a little worse, and I had some sharp mids somewhere I could never really pinpoint. The cure for that? This 31band EQ. So my question is: Why did the winamp eq sound really messy? 4front sounded just fine, I hope this 31band wont get messy, and im going to use it to equalize, no boosting

FyreDaug · 10-27-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by durwood

My brain hurts

I am digging back into the depths of my mind trying to recal what I learned in school 4 years ago about sampling theories and dsp...if only I had my books that are locked up in my storage unit. I am going to have to roll this around the old noggin this weekend.

Here is something else to chew on along with the "bit-perfect discussion" taken from the winamp creative soundcard resampling plugin:

I dont know what that means

What is the deal with the output frequency, does it really make that much of a difference? Am I going to miss out on some quality if I dont pay attention to this? Im going to simply be running analog output, no digital in this setup (actually wish I still was using my home theater reciever with optical input AND BUILT IN TIME DELAYS like I was before, but it was bulky and only gave me a measly 90w max rms output per channel, which would technically be fine, but I wanted something a little different this time. It was a Yamaha RXV450 if anyone cares

RedGTiVR6 · 10-27-2006, 02:37 PM

Read here if you're really interested, you'll just have to decide on your own if it's worth the time to get it to work.

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=88852

durwood · 10-27-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by FyreDaug

I dont know what that means

What is the deal with the output frequency, does it really make that much of a difference? Am I going to miss out on some quality if I dont pay attention to this?

Some people can't hear past 16kHz. So distortion in frequencies above that is not big deal for some. Most mp3s encoded at a normal rate of 128-192 drop information past 16kHz anyways so if you are going to be only listening to mp3's you won't notice much at all. But a 5% error at 16kHz on CD's can be a fairly noticeable problem to the trained ear. 20% error at 19kHz..yikes if you can hear that high.

RedGTiVR6 · 10-27-2006, 03:07 PM

I can hear at 19k, but I don't think I'd be able to notice a 20% error....lol

Though, there's not much 'hearing' at 19k anyways...hehehe

durwood · 10-27-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by durwood

EDIT:
For those using the creative sound cards, I saw a winamp plugin that resamples BEFORE it gets to the soundcard so that it is more accurate than the hardware doing it. It sounds like a bandaid for the 44.1-48kHz resampling problem. Has anyone tried it? I guess its process intensive from a review.

http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=141806

FYI- You can't use the asio ouput plugin AND the 44.1 to 48kHz resampling plugin at the same time because they are both output plugins for winamp.

Quote:

Though, there's not much 'hearing' at 19k anyways...hehehe

Ya I don't think I could tell if a dog whistle is producing the proper response either. That could be painful.

FyreDaug · 10-27-2006, 04:30 PM

Okay, well if we can only hear to 19k, well 16k mostly apaprantly. Then why the need for 44.1k and 48k? 96k? ill go read that link red, but I gotta go to work soon

durwood · 10-27-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by durwood

FYI- You can't use the asio ouput plugin AND the 44.1 to 48kHz resampling plugin at the same time because they are both output plugins for winamp.

Correction: I missed it but there is a newer plugin to send the ouput to another output. After installing, vew the readme on how to set it up. THE ASIO plugin for winamp will also do the resampling. So you can either use this plugin or the ASIO plugin from my understanding.

http://www.hqsoftproc.upcnet.ro/

Quote:

[The SBLive!/Audigy issue]

SBLive! and Audigy1/2 soundcard's DSP work at 48KHz,
so a big problem here for 44.1KHz streams.
SBLive! has a low quality resample to 48KHz algoritm.

This is the SBLive! (and not only) problem:

absolutely any audio stream is converted to 48KHz
(for Audigy1/2 it is converted to 48KHz or 96KHz or 192KHz
if not using DSP - see below note)
the worst performance is 44.1KHz audio streams (cd audio).

Audigy has the same issue even if it is promoted
as a 192KHz/24bit soundcard (please note the important *,
* means that 192KHz is in 2 channels only, and 96KHz
is in 6 or 8 channels, BUT with DSP disabled, that is
with absolutely no effects loaded (not even bass and treble),
so if you use at least one effect or bass/trebe than Audigy2
will switch to DSP and process everything to 48KHz.

1.393% IMD Distortion at 15KHz for Audigy2
(check www.tomshardware.com for details)

[The solution:]

my high quality resample to 48KHz
(or any frequency>= 48000, that means 96KHz and 192KHz too).

Testing results:

using SBLive! to resample to 48000:
19KHz IMD=20%
18KHz IMD=10%
16KHz IMD=5%
14KHz IMD=1%
You don't believe me ...???? I've included in component pack generated tones
used in my test versions of 44100Hz and 48000Hz ... Should sound the same !!!

using my component for KernelPrecision=100 (that means kernelsize 16000 samples
at resampling to 48000Hz):
19KHz IMD=0.01%
18KHz IMD=0.001% ; can't measure less than this
16KHz IMD=0%

CPU Load:
<35% on Duron 825MHz for KernelPrecision 100
<22% on Duron 825MHz for KernelPrecision 50
<15% on AthlonXP2000+ for KernelPrecision 120

[known issues]
Can't resample to a lower samplefrequency than the input.

[configuration items]

<TargetSampleRate> specifies resample target frequency of filter (should be
48000 for SBLive!/Audigy1/2 cards if used in DSP mode, or 96000 for Audigy1/2
if not used in DSP mode, and this must be the working Samplerate of the DSP
on your soundcard!!!

Note: for Audigy2 in 2 channel mode and no DSP you can set this to 192KHz

<KernelPrecision> is a coeficient to calculate the filter kernel size of the
lowpass filter in the multirate filter, for keeping the same quality of the
filtering regardless of the input samplerate. From my tests I would recommend
50 to be the absolute minimum, but I left the option to enter a lower value
for people with slower machines. More than 300 is useless as it can't improve higher.

altering this results:
higher KernelPrecision => higher quality more CPU load.
lower KernelPrecision => lower quality less CPU load.
don't alter this if you do not know what means this or if you do not check
the results on a spectrum analyzer!

[some hints]
If you really want your SBLive/Audigy/Audigy2 to sound perfect I recommand you
to download and install KX Drivers wich you can find at: www.kxproject.com.
These drivers are freeware.
Best sound : KX Drivers + HQSoftProc SoftwareResampling plugin. Try it!
Best results for any soundcard:
MAD plugin + HQSoftProc SoftwareResampling + KernelStreaming plugin
or mpg123 + ASIO plugin

[recommended setup]
1. for Audigy1/2 with DSP disabled:
at least 150 KernelPrecision
96000 Output samplerate (for Audigy2 in 2channels mode use 192KHz if you
don't use KX drivers and, of course no DSP)
24bit output bitdepth
32bit output bitdepth for MAD plugin (does not allow FP->16bit conversion,
but to FP->32bit integer)
64bit floating point for Shibatch mpg123 plugin (audio stream passed directly
to the output plugin, without roundings)
use KX drivers (at least 3538i), but be aware to use
WaveHQ and disable DSP in "24/96 Router", or if you want ASIO, you can use
ASIO4ALL in combination with setting in KX ASIO control panel the ASIO Format
to 24bit/96khz 8+8. If using different format in KX ASIO then make sure you setup
the output plugin with the same settings as in KX ASIO control panel (e.g. if
want to use 16/48KHz setup my plugin to output to 48KHz and 32bit)

2. for SBLive! and Audigy1/2 in DSP mode:
150 KernelPrecision
48000 Output Samplerate
32bit output bitdepth (matches internal processing of SBLive bitdepth)
32bit output bitdepth for MAD plugin (to improve rounding)
use KX drivers

Please note that some versions of the Creative drivers don't handle 32bit properly
so you have to switch to 16 bit or 24 bit.

[Contact:]
email: adi111p@yahoo.com
web: www.HQSoftProc.go.ro

P.S. Haven't you noticed that DVD movies (sampled to 48000Hz) sounded perfect
on your sound system and Audio CD's didn't????? This is why!

another advice: Use KX drivers for SBLive and Audigy and Audigy2 soundcards. You will get
professional EQ-s, filters, 5.1,6.1,7.1 Decoders, but you will need some time to understand
how to configure it

download it from www.kxproject.com

FyreDaug · 10-28-2006, 01:12 AM

Should I look into another plugin aswell? Im new to "plugging in" winamp, and a good chunk of my music collection is all flac ripped, so if there is any way to get better quality im all for it. I got a Auzen...something or other HDA 7.1 X-plosion sound card. Its goot for 2.8v outputs ON the card, which is the only reason I got it really. Can I use anything fancy?

scott_fx · 10-28-2006, 04:12 AM

stumbled across this thread and it may be of some interest to you guys and red:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...545&highlight=