c0nsumer

This is a common misconception. GPL does not prevent commercial exploitation, it just requires commercial users to contribute back changes with similar licensing. There is absolutely no legal reason why I can't take any GPL'd project, change the name, and sell it. I just have to make the source available to those to whom I distribute the package, and those changes have to be GPL'd.

That said, I've personally been going with the MIT license for stuff, because I think of it as more-free. It really is a "do what the hell you will" with it license. Personally, I'm either going to reserve all rights or give it all away without requirements.

MP3Car.com

 

mungewell

You are assuming that I misunderstand the GPL. I am fully aware that a company can manufacture and sell my GPL projects, and I encourage them to do that as not everyone who might be interested will be able to produce the hardware themselves. I simply can't commit to manufacturing the projects myself.

The GPL does (in theory) ensure that the improvements are fed back to the community and that is what I strive to achieve. Personally I prefer the hardwork (and fun) I've done on a project not to be simply 'taken from me'. The choice of a license is not a simple one....

Mungewell.

mungewell

Another reason to choose the GPL is that a fair portion of the '2). Alternative Firmware' has already been done in the pic-key project (which itself is GPL'ed).

See:
http://mudlist.eorbit.net/~adam/pickey/

Munge

CrazyIvan

How about option 3: A USB driver that interprets the existing controller/chatpad messaging so no extra HW is required. Predicated on observing/deciphering the USB handshaking between PC and controller/chatpad.

hobbes1220

CrazyIvan, I agree.

There is a large community of users who want to use the 360 controller + chatpad with a PC, no car involved. For those users, I think that a software only solution is the best choice.

My company would like to use the controller + chatpad on OSX. We're willing to throw some money at this..

It seems to me that the first step is to capture the USB conversation that happens between an XBOX 360 and the controller from when you first plug it in to when you type some stuff.

I believe that a device such as this: http://www.getcatalyst.com/product-conquest.html could be used to capture that conversation.

I've got an XBOX 360, and I've got a USB controller + chatpad. Can someone recommend a cheaper USB capture device? That one I linked to is like $1000... Or, does anybody want to buy a USB capture device next month? Used only once... $900!

Mungewell,
Good work. I'm considering starting a project as well--maybe we should work together. My resources include a wiki, project management site, subversion server, etc. I host those myself, but, sourceforge is good, too. If there is something that we'll need that sourceforge doesn't provide, I should be able to provide it.

The only step I've mentioned so far is capturing the USB conversation between the XBOX and the controller + chatpad. After that, we'd want to hook it up to a PC and start throwing out own mimicked USB packets at it and see what happens. Then we can make a library of functions that do stuff for us, like, activate_chatpad() and switch_controller_light_on(int whichLight).

I'm far more familiar with Linux than OSX, by the way. Anybody know if a Linux device driver (kernel module) is similar to an OSX device driver?

I've configured my profile here on mp3car.com to forward messages to my email account, so please feel free to contact me! Let's get a wiki thrown up--it'll help the hardware-solution guys, too!

Cheers,
--Dave Loyall
Omaha, Nebraska, USA

thermoptic

@c0nsumer:
Probing the test points will get you hotter signals that are TTL friendly. Refer to my previous schematic. TP1 connects to pin 18 RX/DT (via next to C2 connects to via above R15 silkscreen). TP2 connects to pin 17 TX/CK (via near TP8 silkscreen to via at end of TP2 trace). Earlier NULs were sampling glitches. I don't see any traffic with XBOX absent. I won't spend anymore time here without new information.

@mungewell:
Have you traced the signals for the JP1 connector? I see you popped the PIC in your PCB posts. Thanks for tracing the keypad matrix. I think you are on the most deterministic path to success with a new PIC running custom code. I suppose you own a PIC interface kit? Is it possible to run in-system debug without destroying environment (i.e. JTAG)? If so, we can dump the EUSART registers and get the skinny on the link settings. I think a separate project is a great idea. For something as simple as this project, I would opt for MIT or BSD license.

@CrazyIvan:
The purely software approach is definitely much harder; probably impossible without inside help. If you were successfully in reverse-engineering the USB link and controller access, I would worry about D |\/| C 4 issues (sshhh ). Microsoft is making money on the controller and accessories. I suppose decoding the UART interface would enable competitor chatpads, so even this may be an issue. Re-purposing the chatpad with complete PIC rewrite for a non-XBOX task should be OK since Microsoft still makes money on the Messenger Kit sales with no controller interface details divulged. For the lawyers following this thread, this is the option that I am choosing since I want to help Microsoft grow their sales! Oh, and BTW, a PC driver would also help boost sales.


We'll that's enough chatpad for this week Time to grab a cold one and enjoy the four-day weekend.

ioi8

Hey, nice job on figuring out the matrix.

I wouldnt mind putting it on the website, could be for the better. But would microsoft aprrove of it if someone their people found out about the project. Dont you think they check that website to see if people are modifing there stuff they are not supposed too?

So, how do you guys wanna go about this? Im all for trying not trying to reprogram the pic. I would rather convert the uart signal to something the computer can use and transfer that data to something like a keyboard input.

This way, if we cant figure out how to do it, at least the chatpad is still functional.

I think im soon gonna buy me a chatpad and the the uart (3.3v) to usb convetor cable. Hopefully, i will be able to create a small program to trasfer that data to keyboard input.

Zerpico

Hi,
New member here, well sorta, been on ages ago, before you could even buy a handheld MP3 player...
Anyways, I visited again recently, as when I used to frequent this was a superb site, glad to see the community is as strong as ever with some amazing projects and a wealth of information and brilliant ideas...

My background is I've been putting PCs in cars since PCs were small enough to be stealthy, and I've progammed Computer Games all my life, and have fiddled lots with electronics and PIC stuff as a hobbiest, and done plenty of Pro ICE installs comps...

Anyway, not to detract from this thread, I have a couple of ideas that will work and get this nice little keypad usable...


It's been touched upon but not explored, I've read the whole thread and no-one seems to have pointed this out, forgive me if I missed it, but here goes...

Another way instead of trying to reverse engineer, or reprogram this little device...

Simply use the keypad and it's matrix alone, ditch all the electronics then use one of the two following ways to interfeace it...

1. Buy a cheap USB keyboard, rip out the electronics, attach it to the matrix from the keypad you've dismantled and you have a USB keyboard.
Equally use the same method with a PS2 keyboard, and you have a PS2 version...

2. If from reading the first page from a post about the similar device for the Playstation 2
this device actually does just work in XP without additional drivers. Then rip this appart, use it's electronics, and match it to the Xbox KB Matrix and hey presto...

If I'm wrong, or I've missed somethinhg dead obvious, my apologies in advance... But would this do the job without the hard reverse enngineering neccessary to get it to work...?

Some amazing project on this site, I've got lots of reading to do before I decide on what to add to my car....

Keep up the amazing work guys, love this site, and all the people willing to get theirs hands dirty and share their hard work...

N1



Frank...

MP3Car.com

 

ioi8

Besides the smallness and backlit of this keypad..... are there any other pros to converting this keypad?

Are there any other keyboards like this? I cant find anything on the net that is this small that connects to a pc port.

Does anyone else know of a keyboard this small or slightly larger? It doesnt have be backlit, but it would be a great feature.

And after seeing the matrix of the keypad.... im kinda thinking about trying to reprogram the controller. Although the chip is probably a burn once only chip. Your gonna have to replace the whole chip.

mungewell

Yes, it'll definitely annoy old Billie boy ;-)

I think the smallness of the this keyboard is the key (excuse the pun) feature. It is a good size for in car, but also for embedded and wearable applications. With the use of a dremell you even get a fairly nice bezel.

The hardware does have limitations though, as there are no diodes in the matrix the keyboard will not cope well with multiple keys pressed at once - it's intended as a thumb keypad rather than touch typing.

I am in the process of registering a new project with Sourceforge, and will let everyone one know the details once that's up and running. I thought 'Gnatpad' would be a good name. Combining the 'small as a gnat' keyboard and the 'GNU' (assuming people are happy contributing to GPL code) connection. The re-use the Pic-Key code will speed up development considerably.

I believe that reprogramming will be the way forward (at least to start with). PICs are cheap to get hold of and fairly easy to code with, and with my previous projects I have enjoyed the aspect of teaching people a new skill...

I don't think that the 16F833 comes in a OTP part, it isn't mentioned in the datasheet. It does support Debug port and Low Voltage Programming, however these may be disabled with the M$ firmware. Who knows perhaps they have been slack and not set the security bits so that we can have a snoop at what they've done.

@thermoptic - unfortunately I don't have any fancy PIC tools, I've just used home built programmers and the like....

I'm going to try to get the component side trace out, but I'm swamped with other things at the moment.
Cheers,
Mungewell.

c0nsumer

Mungwell:

I apologize for the GPL comments before. I thought you were repeating a very common assumption I regularly hear about the GPL. I do agree that it's probably the best license for you in this case.

Regarding the data in the chip, I'd be really surprised if code protect wasn't turned on. It's absurdly easy (just a config bit) and I haven't heard of a dev skipping it. I would have tried to read out the chip directly (and sniff things right at the UART pins) but my micro grabbers just aren't small enough for those pins, and I didn't feel like soldering jumpers to the SMT pads.

That all said, I wouldn't suggest even attempting to read out the firmware. In order to avoid claims of IP infringement I would think that you should do all you can to stay away from their software and just write your own. Doing this will keep MS from having any valid complaints.

ioi8: Microsoft can't legally have any problems with this. Wiping out the software and writing your own doesn't fall under any DMCA (or any other) claims. You are simply buying a piece of hardware and using it for your own purposes, without reusing any of their IP. Any photos published in order to document things should be fine as well, since they are just documenting things. I'd say don't worry about this at all.

pbarrette

Post #132

Post #91

pb

hobbes1220

Well, looks like there is another option:
http://www.madcatz.com/Default.asp?Page=352

This mini-keyboard snaps onto a PS3 controller.. But this one is just a USB HID compliant keyboard. No drivers or hacking required, as far as I can tell so far. I'll try to find one in a local store, and if it works perfectly as keyboard for a PC, I'll let you all know!

Unfortunately, I suspect that the product quality of this Madcatz thing won't quite match the Microsoft Chatpad. Oh well.. At least it will probably talk to a computer without any problem.

For you guys that wanted to use a mini keyboard without a game controller.. This one's form factor is perfect for that!! Also, it doesn't plug into the controller, and, it's wireless. ..I don't know if it is back-lit, probably not. Like I said I'll try to purchase one and report back with what I find.

--Dave

sporty_drew

Check the first response to the thread.

BTW that keyboard works great.

__________________

cazorp

Ok so I may be wayy off here but it seems to me that if the remote interfaces with the keyboard and the remote interfaces with the PC then the simplest thing to do would be to remove the remotes interface and hardwire it to the pc's main board. you could then in turn build a cable that would run from what was the bottom of the controller to wherever you mount the keyboard... does this make sense to anyone or am i just crazy??

It seems like an easy solution and since the remote interfaces easily it should not be hard to hardwire it to a usb port and have it recognize the keyboard

so if im way off base feel free to tell me but it seems like it would work

Zach

MP3Car.com