Iphone in car navigation - The Death of your PND - Page 2

Bugbyte · 02-09-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by chronoguy

What is with the a/c dash mount? This set-up involves too much work - jailbreaking, etc..

I think my solution with the HTC Touch Pro is a whole lot easier. It is pretty much supported out of the box with only a $20 cable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjnABOFkJZw

I saw your video - it is very cool! A very nice solution.

As for what hardware will work or won't work, the main problem with phones now and likely into the future is that the manufacturers insist on crippling them so you can't get at the innards very easily.

As proprietary as the iPhone is, it come loaded with a bunch of apps that do most of what you need and you can develop for it. If you jailbreak your phone, you can put any app you want on it, so you've got a shot at making it work like you want. Plus, there is so much energy around it that there are tons and tons of new apps being developed that do nearly everything you want.

Beyond that, the Android phone is quite interesting. With the OS being open source, it should be a hacker's delight. I need to find a forum that is extending and hacking it.

Why the mobile device will replace the car PC

For those complaining that a phone based car PC doesn't do everything the car PC does today, of course it doesn't. I'm certain that we'll see it grow and mature into a pretty good platform for in car computing. Here's why I think so:

Installed base. The installed base of even the iPhone is so much larger than the in car PC market. As soon as someone develops a consumer level product that extends the functionality of the phone into the car, regular people who aren't hobbyists like us will begin to use it.
Price. It's cheaper and portable. Your configurations are carried with you and reside both on the phone and on the net.
Functionality. It does almost everything you want a car PC to do except for some very interesting stuff at the margin that will remain the province of the car PC for some time.

The in-car aftermarket products like the AVIC will continue to draw consumers who want excellent quality sound and more flash and bling, but when the average consumer looks at the price difference and the functionality I think they'll choose to extend their phone rather than add another device.

Quote:

Do you not realize that your idea of having a complete frontend supported by any old phone is basically a PC using a phone simply as an I/O device for internet? How is this beneficial at all?

Yes, I do realize that. What is beneficial is eliminating the need to spend money for a car PC, carrying it in your pocket to reduce the possibility of theft and the install footprint, and breaking the requirement to develop an app for each and every phone or operating system by substituting some type of 'display program' for lack of a better term.

Quote:

Just don't understand why your promoting this as such an innovative product, when it really isn't anything new at all, just an iPhone display being rendered on a head unit. Sure it's cool and all, but you can't really expect an iPhone to come even close to what a full PC can do, not even Apple would be stupid enough to make such a claim.

No need for name calling. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Let's check back in 2 years and see where the momentum is.

And I agree - you're right about this prototype not being innovative. What it does is demonstrate how a more integrated and finished product will work in the future.

Nukeb32dc2 · 02-09-2009, 10:43 AM

This topic is going to get ugly. This could have been prevented or thread come across more professional if it focused on the solution and not opinions revolving around it. You will never look like a fool if you just stick to the facts. Only time will tell I suppose...

My 2 cents-

Touch:
How about 3rd party touch? Why would Apple enable such a feature? Without it, this is not a viable solution for carputing. If it was enabled somehow you would still require an LCD with a USB input- the headunit on board doesnt have an output and hoardes its touch panel for its own use.

Connection:
I do not forsee this video connection becoming wireless anytime soon! That means I would have to plug an iPhone into my car just so I can have a SLIGHTLY bigger screen without touch function? This works for the people who already plug this device into their car but others prefer a cleaner look.

Video:
-The refresh rate in the video noticeably sucks.
-You have to navigate thru sideways menu because it is cloning the screen. I will guarantee you Apple is a far cry away from realizing a purpose or having an on-board GPU capable of discrete video output.
-Without discrete video output that has a descent refresh rate- this is not a viable solution for most carputing.

Conclusion: When taken with a grain of salt- this is a very cool approach but has a long way to go. If I had the choice between this hacked configuration and even my first p4 carputer- I would still choose carputer FTW.

My opinion: The hacked setup in videos is ugly and will probably remain the only way you can "get the job done" for the next two years. In two years- I imagine most phones will look and feel like the iPhone so by the time this becomes a reality, it might not be on your beloved iPhone. In short, I think we are all aware of what the iPhone can and can't do so until there are some major revelations- you are only sharing an opinion.

On a closing note- I already know the defensive replies to my post... "this is beta and relies on alot of advances on Apples end yadda yadda." Well, That's my point- I wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket just yet!

Nukeb32dc2 · 02-09-2009, 10:50 AM

This HTC just knocked my socks off comparing it to the iPhone videos!!!

Sweet work! Right side up menus and touch function means you rivaled this iPhone post before it was published IMO!

Quote: Originally Posted by chronoguy

What is with the a/c dash mount? This set-up involves too much work - jailbreaking, etc..

I think my solution with the HTC Touch Pro is a whole lot easier. It is pretty much supported out of the box with only a $20 cable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjnABOFkJZw

I just have my phone inside the side console refrigerator (I never use the fridge). Everything is pretty much hidden from view. I can pull out a Logitech DiNovo Mini keyboard to interface with it. About 10X better than the iPhone.

The problem with the iPhone (I have a 3G model) is that it doesn't have a front end or one you can get from the app store. Playing video is a bit of a hassle. I have my iPhone in my car as well and you can't really play videos by playlists. If you have 50 music videos, you have to exit out of the current one to play the next one. I don't have this problem with the regular IPOD. I use a Ipod Classic 80 just to play videos in my car.

Also, the Iphone doesn't support third party HID devices. You can't use a bluetooth keyboard or touchscreen HID from the LCD.

Phones are getting there. I use my HTC Touch pretty much over the standard Nav I already have.

Don't discount PNDs. You can buy a Mio and hack it pretty much; install a new front end, add multiple GPS apps - Garmin XT, Tom Tom, IGuidance, IGo, Oncourse,etc... All you need is a SD card and the proper boot executable. if there was a PND with Video Out and GPS built in, I would totally do that.

Laminar · 02-09-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by skusa93

Now, lets pick this apart.
Do you have surround sound capability on you iPhone? Didn't think so.
Chalk one up for the CarPC.
Does your iPhone support playback of 1080i? Cause my CarPC will if I buy a Blu-Ray DVD Drive.
That's two.
GPS? Are you kidding me? Clearly you know absolutely nothing about the iPhone, which runs off of triangulation and not GPS.
Yet again, CarPC wins.
Phone? I have a cell phone with a $20 bluetooth adapter in my car. I'll throw you a bone and call this a tie.
Internet? How in the world do you call what the iPhone has as a browser internet, sure you can use it as a browser, but that's like saying I use my car for the radio, the internet has an infinite amount of possibilities, only one of which the iPhone takes advantage of. Pretty sure I'm stickin with the PC on this one too.
Why in the world is email important in your car? Are you really going to type a response on your iPhone mounted to the air conditioning vent while driving? If so I'm hoping you live nowhere near me.
Maybe I'm blind, but where does OBDII tie into any of this?

Wait...you don't want email capabilities in your car, but you want 1080i?

Also, the 3G iPhone DOES have real GPS. I'm not sure what your beef is with the iPhone's internet capabilities either, it has internet access that can be used by any application, not just its browser.

Archy88 · 02-09-2009, 12:14 PM

I have At&t's version of the touch pro...and a 3g iphone. Decisions decisions! Where did you get that TV out cable for the HTC?

In a few years this iPhone thing may take off...but in the meantime I still feel the carPC is the way to go. If the casual user comes along, they can still purchase a Pioneer and be on their way. It's the customization of the carPC that keeps me trucking along

slonoma98 · 02-09-2009, 12:35 PM

Where can I find more info on that adapter made by PAC?

Fiberoptic · 02-09-2009, 12:44 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Nukeb32dc2

This HTC just knocked my socks off comparing it to the iPhone videos!!!

I agree the HTC does a very impressive job and in some ways better than the iPhone.

Hopefully we can see some innovations coming on android phones that may support video.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nukeb32dc2

Touch:
How about 3rd party touch? Why would Apple enable such a feature? Without it, this is not a viable solution for carputing. If it was enabled somehow you would still require an LCD with a USB input- the headunit on board doesnt have an output and hoardes its touch panel for its own use.

I was not suggesting that apple would allow this feature. This feature will come with hacks like bluesn0w. IPhone hackers make it very easy to use unapproved third party apps.

Hacking your iPhone can be done by anyone with even the most basic technical skills.

I was however suggesting in my second video that a wireless touch screen would be made to work on multiple phone and device platforms - iPhone, Android, Window Mobile and possibly even PCs. There will be multiple size screens, battery powered, and have almost zero install times. Future versions will have force feedback integrated into them like what we videoed here.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nukeb32dc2

My opinion: The hacked setup in videos is ugly and will probably remain the only way you can "get the job done" for the next two years. In two years- I imagine most phones will look and feel like the iPhone so by the time this becomes a reality, it might not be on your beloved iPhone. In short, I think we are all aware of what the iPhone can and can't do so until there are some major revelations- you are only sharing an opinion.

I agree this solution isn't perfect. This solution won't be used by technology laggards for years, but we might see some interesting innovations that make this usable daily by early adopters within the next 6-12 months.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nukeb32dc2

I wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket just yet!

Because this was filmed with an iPhone I think we got off on the wrong foot here. The video was aimed at being geared towards the use of in car mobile devices and we were just using the iPhone as an example.

I am glad this has sparked some debate. There will be a need for computers in cars for the more advanced features for a few years left to come. My point here is that a lot of pain points that caused people to use computers in the car in the first place are being eliminated quickly by mobile phones. Computers in cars are solving mass market pains at a slower rate than they have in the past which leads me to believe there will be a shift from some car computer hobbyists into becoming mobile phone hackers.

That being said there are always new entries into the car computing space which help rejuvenate the hobby. A perfect example is the fusion brain. This has opened up a multitude of new project with some amazing tools for creativity and innovation that can't and won't happen with a mobile phone for years to come.

Quote: Originally Posted by MeeM

It's a bold statement to make. If you watch the market carefully, you'll see that Pioneer, Sony, JVC, etc. are all making headunits with 7" touchscreen LCDs, USB ports, iPod control, DVD player (possibly Blu-Ray now), HD radio, and some even have hard drives built-in. These are simple car PCs in their own right. We're going to reach a point of convergence: what we car PC enthusiasts have been doing for years will eventually meet up with the new models from the likes of these electronics giants. At that point, most headunits will be car PCs without people realising it. As it stands, many car makers have the radio, a/c, OBD stats running on a common interface and sometimes one screen, so the convergence is inevitable. It's just a matter of time before we find all cars coming with 120GB hard drives, full internet capability, etc. and these will be available in new cars as well as aftermarket units.

I also think smart head units have a limited life span as well. Maybe we can make that the topic of a separate conversation. [/QUOTE]

Quote: Originally Posted by MeeM

Instead of encouraging you to use the phone as the car PC, the electronics giants would rather build a headunit with all the bells and whistles, and add a phone control module so that you can use your phone as the bridge to the internet cloud or whatever service your phone can offer that's not already in the headunit.

It's not dead. And if it is dying, it will take years upon years to fully extinguish, after which it will simply reincarnate itself as the standard system in your new car.

I agree with you on all points here. There is a big incentive for the aftermarket device manufacturers to accessorize and expand your phone, but there will be a point where the majority of the innovations are happening on the software side and there will be little room for innovation in the hardware except with Display, design and input technology.

Again, I agree on the two year point for these changes to take effect and it might even be longer for technology laggards.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bugbyte

2. Server-based front end that renders the phone hardware almost irrelevant. .

Quote: Originally Posted by skusa93

Do you not realize that your idea of having a complete frontend supported by any old phone is basically a PC using a phone simply as an I/O device for internet? How is this beneficial at all?.

It would be beneficial in some of the same ways that ASP software models work in corporate environments, but this should also be part of another thread or topic of server based front ends.

chronoguy · 02-09-2009, 12:49 PM

Phone integration is going to happen. I see phones now with HDMI out.
I think you can unlock some Audis with bluetooth.

The way I see it, we need always-on data connection. Google Street View is the way to go. I can see it built into GPS applications that update as you go. Can you imagine driving in dense fog and street view along with 3D terrain mapping and 3D buildings can show you the way. There are some free GPS and monthly GPS apps that work with WinMo that gives you satellite aerial photography. I can't remember the name but I thought it was cool that it overlay your route onto satellite imagery of the road via over-the-air cell download.

Check out this Land Rover iPhone Dock for the LRX. It is a concept but the phone is integral to the car's operation.

As for Apple. I don't know if they want to go this route. They could make a AppleTV device convergence device for the car. I'd buy it.

Nukeb32dc2 · 02-09-2009, 02:28 PM

@Fiberoptic- Didn't even realize you were Staff! Thanks for touching on my comments and not just deleting my mp3car.com account!

Well defended, good luck, and eager to hear updates!

Fiberoptic · 02-09-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Nukeb32dc2

@Fiberoptic- Didn't even realize you were Staff! Thanks for touching on my comments and not just deleting my mp3car.com account!

Well defended, good luck, and eager to hear updates!

I am completely open and actually appreciate respectful challenges to my opinions. Many opinions are one of the great assets of these forums.

Many of active forum members are more knowledgeable than we are. Lots of users contribute in stealth mode that do advanced research on heavily funded corporate projects or have backgrounds in similar industries that make them uniquely qualified to answer some of the harder questions presented here.

prodigalsun · 02-09-2009, 03:44 PM

I agree that future technology available with mobile phones as well as new features to head units will come close to replacing the Car PC but the main point to remember is if manufacturers do not include Car PC functions in their core functionality assessment, these devices will never truly replace Car PCs. For example when a smartphone manufacturer like HTC develops a cell phone they'd have a certain requirement on how the consumer would use their device and gear their hardware to meet those needs. Thus the reason I'd never use my HTC phone as a multitasking device. Point blank is, it does have enough processing power to do all the functions I need on the run (ie outside my car), but not quite up to par as a Car PC replacement, because it's not made for that purpose. To me processing power as well as storage will be the main killers. It's not so much whether these devices can do the functions, it's a matter of whether they do them efficiently. Prior to getting into Car PCs, I used to use my cellphone as my all-in-one device. Why did I switch? Well for starters when I'd be trying to route to someone's address, I'd get a phone call or text and it would freeze my mapping. I could go on but you get my drift.

Throughout this thread I've read people saying that a cellphone would be cheaper to install as a Car PC, but are we considering the total cost of ownership or just the up front cost. For example is storage factored into that equation? Last time I checked HDD space/ GB was less than $0.50. It will be a while before flash-based memory reaches that price point. Basically to do all the things we do with Car PCs you'd have to wait until cellphone $/processing power + $/storage unit approach that of Car PC hardware. It's not a question of if this will happen but when and at what cost.

Bugbyte · 02-09-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by prodigalsun

Throughout this thread I've read people say the a cellphone would be cheaper to install as a Car PC, but are we considering the total cost of ownership or just the up front cost. For example is storage factored into that equation? Last time I checked HDD space/ GB was less than $0.50. It will be a while before flash-based memory reaches that price point. Basically to do all the things we do with Car PCs you'd have to wait until cellphone $/processing power + $/storage unit approach that of Car PC hardware. It's not a question of if this will happen but when and at what cost.

Good points. It's always risky to make a point estimate of the future, so who knows when or even how the costs will come down. With a suitably reliable net connection, you wouldn't need to store very much on the phone itself. You could have it on a server or on your home PC and download as needed.

Deceptikon · 02-09-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by MeeM

It's a bold statement to make. If you watch the market carefully, you'll see that Pioneer, Sony, JVC, etc. are all making headunits with 7" touchscreen LCDs, USB ports, iPod control, DVD player (possibly Blu-Ray now), HD radio, and some even have hard drives built-in. These are simple car PCs in their own right. We're going to reach a point of convergence: what we car PC enthusiasts have been doing for years will eventually meet up with the new models from the likes of these electronics giants. At that point, most headunits will be car PCs without people realising it. As it stands, many car makers have the radio, a/c, OBD stats running on a common interface and sometimes one screen, so the convergence is inevitable. It's just a matter of time before we find all cars coming with 120GB hard drives, full internet capability, etc. and these will be available in new cars as well as aftermarket units.

Instead of encouraging you to use the phone as the car PC, the electronics giants would rather build a headunit with all the bells and whistles, and add a phone control module so that you can use your phone as the bridge to the internet cloud or whatever service your phone can offer that's not already in the headunit.

It's not dead. And if it is dying, it will take years upon years to fully extinguish, after which it will simply reincarnate itself as the standard system in your new car.

The only problem with that is those headunits are expensive and not very upgradeable or hackable. I've been putting off a carPC install for months since I found out about them because I'm trying to find the perfect system. For someone like me (who is also planning on buying a phone to use as a 3G tether) it's more cost effective to just use the phone and upgrade later as new features are developed, all the while hacking away to unlock capabilities. Of course, this doesn't work for someone who wants all the features up front (read: has deep pockets), or for someone who already sunk a lot of money into a Car PC.

Here's hoping for future support of dual display output.

Also, anyone have a resource with specs on audio output quality of all the different smart phones? Would be good for use in comparison to headunit/carpc audio quality. Thanks!

prodigalsun · 02-09-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Bugbyte

Good points. It's always risky to make a point estimate of the future, so who knows when or even how the costs will come down. With a suitably reliable net connection, you wouldn't need to store very much on the phone itself. You could have it on a server or on your home PC and download as needed.

Yes I see your point but that just seems like a work around. Yet another thing to factor into the equation ie. mobile internet reliability, speed and cost. Here in Canada mobile internet costs are pretty much out the roof IMO and as always the Canadian market always lags behind when it comes to bringing cell phone technological innovations to the consumer.

For now I'm quite happy with my Car PC

pcpete · 02-09-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by prodigalsun

Here in Canada mobile internet costs are pretty much out the roof IMO and as always the Canadian market always lags behind when it comes to bringing cell phone technological innovations to the consumer.

For now I'm quite happy with my Car PC

Shhh... don't tell Bell mobility... I'm tethering my HTC Touch for $10/month unlimited highspeed...best deal in the world...I'm using PDANET so the usage is totally masked...

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