3m upgrades - Page 20

Guinnessdawg · 11-09-2007, 10:57 AM

Your right, I was just getting ready to re-post. I think I looked in the wrong place the first time...small print. I did find where the ESR sheet was $34. And I'm ok with giving them a little $$$ to cover for all these other "free samples" they're sending to our brothren (LOL). I too am curious about the DBEF issue. Does anyone have a little extra leftover, enough to cover a 8" Lilli?

nst6563 · 11-09-2007, 07:37 PM

The DBEF films are reflective polarizers. Basically they recycle light that is normally otherwise lost in the polarizer of the LCD. They pass what is called P1 light, but reflect P2 light in the form of P1 and P2. The reflected P1 passes through, while the P2 gets recycled again.

I don't think it's totally necessary, but will increase the light output of your screen a lot when combined with the BEFII fims.

btw...still haven't heard back from them on possibly using Optical bonding with these films.

Guinnessdawg · 11-09-2007, 11:03 PM

Here's the reply I got back this afternoon from 3m.....

"Outside digikey, I don't know of another source that would sell you a sheet or two.
You could buy a kit of 10 sheets( minimum quantity) from us.
DBEF-D 45 degree comes as 10 sheets of 14"x14" which cost $550, 10 sheets of 17"x17" which cost $815."

....cough

nobb · 11-10-2007, 04:26 PM

I recently got the samples. Its pretty baller that 3M shipped with Fedex and it was delivered on a weekend. How necessary is the ESR sheet? I only have the DBEF-E 0, BEF II 90/24 and BEF III 90/50 sheets, but no ESR. Also, what did you guys use to cut the films? Any tips?

nst6563 · 11-10-2007, 07:40 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by nobb

I recently got the samples. Its pretty baller that 3M shipped with Fedex and it was delivered on a weekend. How necessary is the ESR sheet? I only have the DBEF-E 0, BEF II 90/24 and BEF III 90/50 sheets, but no ESR. Also, what did you guys use to cut the films? Any tips?

ESR isn't totally necessary, but seeing is how it's over 98% reflective I figured it was better than the plain gloss white sheet that was in the backlight. It does reflect light back out of the LCD as you can see from one of my pictures (so much light in fact that it drowns most of the rest of the picture out).

From my understanding the BEFII 90/24 should only be used in applications to reduce the moire effect, otherwise the BEFII 90/50 should be used.

As for cutting the films. Use a razor. A VERY sharp one. I'd recommend a brand new one actually as the films are harder to cut than you'd imagine for being as thin as they are. I used a carpenters square and some c-clamps to hold it in place over the film. Don't remove the protective plastic sheets from the films until you're ready to install. Also - wear gloves - ones without latex dust on them. A fingerprint is impossible to get out even when washed with 98% pure alcohol (I know this from experience

)

nobb · 11-10-2007, 08:14 PM

Ok, well I just installed the films. I dont know how difficult it is to install it on a standard touchscreen, but I have a motorized unit and it took me about 5 hours since I was being super careful not to break anything. I am using the BEFII 90/24 and I can definitely see the moire effect, but it doesn't really bother me. My k301 feels super delicate, so I actually didnt use any gloves. I tried wearing some medical gloves, but it was just too clumsy and inaccurate to the point that I didnt feel as confident about not breaking the screen. The ribbon cables on my unit are actually permanently glued, so I had to work on the LCD screen with all the cables connected.

My k301 came with 3 films (one of them a diffuser, dont know what the other two are). I basically replaced the 3 films such that my lcd now looks like: backlight system > BEFII 90/24 > DBEF-E 0 degree > LCD > TS. Unfortunately, the procedure took me all afternoon and its dark now, so I cant test it out in the sun =(

mustanglou · 11-13-2007, 10:10 AM

Hey, is 3M tightening up on their free sample policy? I requested some and they sent a follow-up email requesting information about my expected sales volume.

nst6563 · 11-13-2007, 11:21 AM

they might be yes...or it could be that they see a discrepency in your information you submitted and are questioning it.

nobb · 11-13-2007, 11:23 AM

From some posts here, I am getting the impression that 3M used to just send out the samples without the email. I remember a few months ago I would fill in the request form and got nothing (no email, nothing). But I think its a good thing that you got the email, because that means they acknowledge your request and are waiting for your response. However, to get past the email stage to get free samples, I think users have had to make up stories.

mustanglou · 11-13-2007, 11:44 AM

Noob, I think you may be right.. That sucks. I don't think I want to claim to be selling or manufacturing a product -- I just wanted to make the screen I have brighter. It's a shame they don't sell the film to individuals in small quantities.

nst6563 · 11-13-2007, 12:23 PM

true. But when you look at it from a business perspective, the money's not in small quantities.

I guess there's always Digikey...and since your order will be more than $20 with these films they may not shaft you with that "handling" fee they have.

I noticed on 3M's site they have a transflective film...but it's not available in the US. Has anyone from Europe ordered a sample of that or can get some? I'd be interested in knowing how that compares to the films we can get in the US.

nobb · 11-13-2007, 12:37 PM

What transreflective film are you talking about? The ESR? I always thought that the ESR is what gives the screen transreflective properties because it reflects incoming light and re-reflects it through the LCD.

nst6563 · 11-13-2007, 01:04 PM

this film:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...bePCK3CL8LJKgl

although it does say it's for 'monochrome' displays...

I have the ESR film in my backlight and it is very cool stuff. almost too thin though as it makes the application of it a little more difficult.

nst6563 · 11-13-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by nst6563

this film:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...bePCK3CL8LJKgl

although it does say it's for 'monochrome' displays...

I have the ESR film in my backlight and it is very cool stuff. almost too thin though as it makes the application of it a little more difficult.

:EDIT: - I can say without a doubt that reading my screen in sunlight is easy and maybe the ESR had something to do with that....the only problem I have is the glare which I'll be re-locating my screen in the near future and probably getting some ARMR-200 to go with it.

:EDIT2: - nice...hit the quote button instead of edit... gonna be one of those days I see...

nobb · 11-13-2007, 01:38 PM

Nice to hear you got your screen to be more sunlight readable. Can you still make out the buttons and stuff even with touchscreen glare? Also, did you use 1 or 2 layers of BEFII? I only used one layer of BEFII, and I am not sure if I want to go through all that hassle again to install another BEFII film. I havent had the chance to test my screen in the direct sun yet.

The transreflective film seems to be made only for monochrome, so I'm not sure what would happen if you put it in a color lcd. Looking at the pdf datasheet, the monochrome transreflective films are only rated for 45% reflectance, compared to the 98% of your ESR. Also, the contrast ratio at a 10 degree angle is only 40:1.

Also, could someone explain why the BEFII and BDEF films make your screen easier to read in the sun? I read the 3M site and have a pretty good understanding on how these films are supposed to work. Why is it that they do not seem to affect indoor brightness and only outdoor brightness? The 3M site seems to suggest that the application of both these films is supposed to increase brightness overall by recycling the polarized light which is normally absorbed by the polarizing filter, so wouldnt that make it brighter indoors as well?