3m upgrades - Page 25

Mojo85 · 12-01-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Phatsacks

It was worthless. The thickness of the film made the application too difficult to squeegee the bubbles out.

I'm considering having a custom protector made from bestkinsever.com (not for anti-reflection).

When I was buying everything, I kept browsing the classifieds, and about half the screens had "a small scratch" on them. So it seems like a very good chance that I will scratch this screen.

I highly recommend against buying the ARMR-200 film.

why is it hard to install, when the installation is the same as the other films?

hpprose · 12-02-2007, 09:51 AM

Hey Guys,

When I discussed what I was doing with 3M, they said that the ARMR-200 is the film I needed. They way Linda made it sound, we don't even need the other films. These films are placed on the front surface of the display and can be easily removed when needed.

Next week I'm going to be working on molding my screen in my dash. As soon as I'm finished, I will post some pics and also, get with Linda and get some ARMR-200 films. Below is what she said was the films do.

We may have a product that will meet your needs: Removable Anti-Reflection Film (ARMR-200). This product offers:
* ultra-thin, multi-layer film that protects delicate LCD screens from damage
* reduces screen surface reflections to minimize glare and increase clarity
* does not bunch up or leave air gaps that can result in image distortion
* smudges and fingerprints wipe off easily
* ideal for screens requiring a stylus as the input device
* easily removable
* can be easily trimmed
* recommend replacement every 3 - 6 months

hpprose · 12-02-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Phatsacks

I highly recommend against buying the ARMR-200 film.

Where were you trying to mount it? Behind or in front of the screen?

FirebirdTN · 12-02-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by hpprose

Hey Guys,

When I discussed what I was doing with 3M, they said that the ARMR-200 is the film I needed. They way Linda made it sound, we don't even need the other films. These films are placed on the front surface of the display and can be easily removed when needed.

Next week I'm going to be working on molding my screen in my dash. As soon as I'm finished, I will post some pics and also, get with Linda and get some ARMR-200 films. Below is what she said was the films do.

We may have a product that will meet your needs: Removable Anti-Reflection Film (ARMR-200). This product offers:
* ultra-thin, multi-layer film that protects delicate LCD screens from damage
* reduces screen surface reflections to minimize glare and increase clarity
* does not bunch up or leave air gaps that can result in image distortion
* smudges and fingerprints wipe off easily
* ideal for screens requiring a stylus as the input device
* easily removable
* can be easily trimmed
* recommend replacement every 3 - 6 months

The ARMR-200 is an anti-glare film that is targeted at the end user that is applied directly on the screen. This thread is about changing the films behind the screen to achieve more brightness/sunlight readibility. The ARMR-200 won't do jack for brightness enhancement, which is what this entire thread is about. Go back, and re-read the first post.

-Alan

Mojo85 · 12-02-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by FirebirdTN

The ARMR-200 is an anti-glare film that is targeted at the end user that is applied directly on the screen. This thread is about changing the films behind the screen to achieve more brightness/sunlight readibility. The ARMR-200 won't do jack for brightness enhancement, which is what this entire thread is about. Go back, and re-read the first post.

-Alan

yes, the problem is also that LCD reflects back (like a mirror almost) any light that is thrown at it, which makes it hard to read under bright conditions, which enchancing the brightness on its own won't solve.

FirebirdTN · 12-02-2007, 11:18 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Mojo85

yes, the problem is also that LCD reflects back (like a mirror almost) any light that is thrown at it, which makes it hard to read under bright conditions, which enchancing the brightness on its own won't solve.

Yes, for most monitors sunlight readibility is a two-fold problem, but his reply suggests that all you have to do is slap some ARMR-200 on your LCD screen and that is all you need. For some monitors that maybe true, but not the majority of them, which is why this thread even exists in the first place!

-Alan

hpprose · 12-02-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by FirebirdTN

Yes, for most monitors sunlight readibility is a two-fold problem, but his reply suggests that all you have to do is slap some ARMR-200 on your LCD screen and that is all you need. For some monitors that maybe true, but not the majority of them, which is why this thread even exists in the first place!

-Alan

The post I submitted was what 3M Themselves says. After all, they are the experts who do this for a living. What do you do for a living? What degrees do you hold? Why are you an expert?

Have you tried the ARMR-200? If not, why would you automatically disregard its possible improvement of the film? This tread is about improving the readability of the screen.

Perhaps if you, yourself go back and reread this thread. If you do, you will see multiple commenting about the ARMR-200 film. Perhaps then you will see where my post is relevant. After all, the main reason we are all here is to help one anther and improve the car computing experience. Isn’t it?

hari-bhari · 12-02-2007, 11:56 AM

Do you honestly believe that the people that dismantled their entire screen to add/remove these layers are idiots who love wasting their time doing tedious work when all they really needed was to slap a simple layer on the front?

Nobody said that the ARMR film was useless, but if you read your own comments from Linda, you'll see that it does nothing but reduce reflection. Perhaps you should go back and re-read all the other posts which necessitate the use of the DBEF films to improve the readability.

And if you have the time, try and brush up on light polarity and what it means, then maybe the use of all these films will make more sense to you. And before you ask, no I did not major in optics, but then again I bet nobody here majored in CarPCs, and look how far we've come.

FirebirdTN · 12-02-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by hpprose

The post I submitted was what 3M Themselves says. After all, they are the experts who do this for a living. What do you do for a living? What degrees do you hold? Why are you an expert?

Have you tried the ARMR-200? If not, why would you automatically disregard its possible improvement of the film? This tread is about improving the readability of the screen.

Perhaps if you, yourself go back and reread this thread. If you do, you will see multiple commenting about the ARMR-200 film. Perhaps then you will see where my post is relevant. After all, the main reason we are all here is to help one anther and improve the car computing experience. Isn’t it?

Your are absolutely right. This forum is for helping each other. I am sorry if I came accross as degrading, but your reply was a duplicate that you posted a couple pages back. We are aware of the ARMR film, thank you for sharing. But to insinutate that this one magical film is all you need is NOT helping the very purpose in which this thread was created. IMHO your post was rather insulting to the OP in suggesting that all he had to do was slap this film on, and never had to dismantle his LCD at all.

To answer some of your questions: I have not tried the ARMR-200, but do plan on purchasing it. I never said it was useless, just trying to point out that this ONE film in itself is not going to magicly turn your monitor into a sunlight readable one. I am not an expert; I never claimed to be, but I do have a brain, and am capable of obtaining knowledge. My degrees? I don't see how this is relavent, as I have met some very .... less than stellar people with many advanced degrees. I have also met some of the very smartest people I have ever known that never went to college. A "degree" in itself doesn't certify your intelligence. As to what I do for a living, I am a broadcast engineer, but I don't see what that has to do with Vikuiti films.

hari-bhari- Thank you for your defense. I was starting to wonder if its a full moon out.

-Alan

hpprose · 12-03-2007, 09:47 AM

Alan, hari-bhari, This thread was started for one reason; to improve the readability/use ability of changeip (Sam’s) touch screen while driving during the day through the use of 3M’s films.

Quote: Originally Posted by changeip

So last night I decided to give the 3M (Vikuiti) products a shot on my lilliput 701. Previously I could not even see the screen in the sunlight while driving, and now after the upgrade I'm happy to say that it worked wonders!

That being said, no one in here has talked to 3M. I don’t know why. You guys understand this way better than I do and would probably gain more from talking to them than me. Since, no one has gone to 3M, I figured that I should:

My question to them was this:

Quote: Originally Posted by hpprose

Hey Linda,

Thanks. I do have one question. Do you have a recommendation as to what people should try or start with in order to reduce the glare and improve the readability of a touch screen in an automotive environment? Many people aren’t able to afford the transreflective screens out in the market and they are looking for a more cost affective solution. Thanks,
Chad

That’s where her answer/my post comes in.

When I reposted it, I added additional information and then asked Phatsacks where he tried to mount it. I guess I should have combined my posts into one instead of two but that’s what I did.

Quote: Originally Posted by Phatsacks

I highly recommend against buying the ARMR-200 film/

Quote: Originally Posted by hpprose

Where were you trying to mount it? Behind or in front of the screen?

His comment to me sounded like he was trying to add the ARMR-200 behind the screen. I don’t know for sure, that’s why I asked.

Quote: Originally Posted by FirebirdTN

We are aware of the ARMR film, thank you for sharing. But to insinutate that this one magical film is all you need is NOT helping the very purpose in which this thread was created. IMHO your post was rather insulting to the OP in suggesting that all he had to do was slap this film on, and never had to dismantle his LCD at all.

I’m not trying to insinuate that one magical film is the end all be all, but how can you disregard it? That’s what the experts recommend?

Quote: Originally Posted by FirebirdTN

I never said it was useless, just trying to point out that this ONE film in itself is not going to magicly turn your monitor into a sunlight readable one. I am not an expert; I never claimed to be, but I do have a brain, and am capable of obtaining knowledge.

Some screens already have some of these films in them. If you go back and read many of the posts in here, you will see where people reference films already installed and commenting that they are not sure if they are the same films they are adding or not. So, adding this film very well could be the GOOD fix. If you look at history, you will see time and time again where people went out of their way to fix something that could have very easily been fixed another way.

Many people in forums consider themselves more knowledgeable than they really are (I’m not pointing to anyone one nor do I have anyone in mind). People have one good experience, or read enough about something and they become experts. Their opinions are the end all be all. I don’t know very much about this type of stuff. I’m sure 90% of the people in here know far more than I do. So, I don’t know who’s full of you know what and who’s not. I do know that there are a lot of people trying to do this upgrade that don’t know what they are doing. In the earlier posts in here, someone did a walk though and missed the fact that the films are actually inside of the housing. It wasn’t until someone pointed out that the films are inside of that housing, that, that person knew where the films were.

Read back and you will see countless people, including myself, asking which films, what do I do, how do I do it. That’s because many people in here aren’t experts and are tying this for the first time. Hari-bhari, take a moment, and look at some of these posts. People want to try this stuff, they want to do it, but they don’t have the knowledge or experience to do this without guidance. I don’t believe they are idiots, just inexperienced.

Quote: Originally Posted by hari-bhari

Do you honestly believe that the people that dismantled their entire screen to add/remove these layers are idiots who love wasting their time doing tedious work when all they really needed was to slap a simple layer on the front?

So, your comment shows, that you don’t understand why people are on here and how they use this forum. People who have lots of posts are looked up to and respected/regarded as knowledgeable. Which is completely wrong, but I myself, will trust something that is being said by someone with 100 posts as to 10.

I’m not going to go back and forth with you guys. This is my piece and I’m done. If you want to post how stupid I am, and how ignorant I am, then be my guess. This thread isn’t about stupid posts and who said what, it is about improving readability / use ability of the screens during the daytime.

FirebirdTN · 12-03-2007, 11:33 AM

hpprose,

I am sorry if my remarks came accross as hostile in any way. You do bring up a VERY good point that I did completely overlook, and that is the fact that there are probably quite a few people that want to try these mods for the sake of improving display legibility that really should not be tinkering with them, as these types of mods are not for the faint of heart, and one could EASILY RUIN their monitor.

For these people, the ARMR-200 is a good solution; it can be applied without having to dismantle the LCD, and *may* be enough to provide satisfactory results.

I understand your point on contacting 3M, and they are the experts for sure; but what you have to realize is their answer is going to be geared towards an "end user" product, of which the ARMR-200 is the only product (that I am aware of for this purpose) they are going to recommend. Even if their internal films were far superior to any available, they would NEVER recommend to an end user to dismantle their displays to install their superior films. So you will never hear a customer rep advising you to purchase the BEF/DBEF/ESR films, because their intended customerbase for those films are display manufacturers, even though when installed correctly in place of the stock films in the cheaper LCDs provide far superior results.

-Alan

Phatsacks · 12-13-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by Phatsacks View Post
I highly recommend against buying the ARMR-200 film/

Quote: Originally Posted by hpprose View Post
Where were you trying to mount it? Behind or in front of the screen?

His comment to me sounded like he was trying to add the ARMR-200 behind the screen. I don’t know for sure, that’s why I asked.

No, the ARMR-200 was applied to the outside of the screen.

It's worthless in application in my opinion, but if you want, buy some and try it.

It was thick, too thick. It didn't apply well (lots of bubbles that couldn't be removed). I didn't notice any improvement on the portions that did not have air bubbles when in sunlight.

Again, feel free to buy some and test it out for yourself, your results may differ...

sivart321 · 12-13-2007, 12:37 PM

I can agreee that it doesnt really help with sunlight visibility or glare, but I didnt really think it was all that thick or difficult to apply.

I was able to apply it just fine and didnt notice any differences with the responsiveness of the touchscreen, unfortunately though it didn't really help with the glare or reflections at all.

Oh well.

Phatsacks · 12-13-2007, 01:37 PM

I didn't think it was too thick for responsiveness, but I didn't test it long..it just seemed too thick that some touches would be missed.

I applied it like I do any other protector, but it just wasn't working out at all. Felt like trying to apply a warped piece of plastic.

kuo · 12-13-2007, 03:22 PM

i think i've read through this thread at least 5 times now and i'm still a little confused as to what how these films are to be oriented. from my reading, this is how i understand it should be but again, i am a little confused so please correct me if i'm wrong.
ESR, Backlight, optional diffuser, BEFII, BEFII (90 degrees from first BEFII), DBEF (same orientation as lcd polarizer), polarizer and lcd, touch panel, optional ARMR-200 (which a few people don't recommend).

now here are the things i am very unclear on.

does it matter which way the two layers of BEFII are oriented? from what i can tell, it is important that one is 90 degrees from the other but as far as which goes first i haven't a clue. there was a recommendation that the DBEF be oriented in the same directoin as the first layer of BEFII, so it should be either BEFII || BEFII = DBEF ||, or BEFII = BEFII || DBEF=. others in the thread have stressed that it is very important that the DBEF be oriented in the same direction as the lcd polarizer. so what i'm thinking is match the DBEF to the polarizer and then arrange the BEFII so that the first layer is the same orientation as the DBEF with the 2nd layer of BEFII 90 degrees to the first. please correct me if i'm wrong.

another thing i'm unsure about is if there is a front and back to the DBEF. i am guessing no. as for the BEFII, apparently one side you can see through and the other side is reflective. 2k1toaster posted that the side you can see through faces the lcd and the reflective side faces the backlight which makes sense to me. can anyone confirm or deny?

i would like to give this a try but i looked on ebay today and couldn't find any dbef available. does anyone know where i could buy some? i have 2 screens, maybe 3 that i would like to do this on.