NEC 8.4" Transflective Solution - Custom Kit - Page 5

bl3nd3r · 11-05-2007, 08:34 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by sillyrabbit

I have also been following this thread with great interest. I have a large but somewhat inconveniently sized aperture I wish to make use of for locating a touchscreen (8.5" x 5.1")

I recently found this screen.

http://www.trident-uk.co.uk/componen...t_display.html

Any comments?

I was able to find a price and it looks like this unit would cost $408USD from Avnet.

The specs look really nice but I am wondering if the resolution will be a little to high for a car application.

thermoptic · 11-06-2007, 12:37 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by DJWaffles

First off thank you guys for all the research you did for this thread. I was beginning to lose faith that I'd ever be able to put a good LCD in my car. I've already abandoned the idea of having a motorized screen, but I'm hoping this one will be good for a stationary screen. I just have two questions.

My mobo already has a dual dhannel 36bit LVDS output on it. Will I still need to purchase an LVDS I/O controller? Or does the connection on the mobo mean that is already incorporated?

Second, will that LVDS connection even work with that 8.4 inch NEC screen? I don't know a lot about that stuff, but I was reading something about it being 6 or 8 bit color how does that figure into a 36 bit LVDS output?

Here's a link to the mobo

http://www.orbitmicro.com/global/fuz...id-p-4187.html

A cursory review of the User's Manual (see page 2-15) reveals this MB may have the transceiver chip integrated as the final connector is similar to the 40-pin connector on my adapter card:

http://www.logicsupply.com/media/man...)100x150mm.pdf

This appears to be a very new board. Pretty tight design targeted at industrial with more embedded SBC features such as SPI flash. Interesting. I have owned MSI PC MBs and they have always been solid.

My EPIA board allows for more possibilities with the more generic header. You need to do some homework on the JLVDS1 connector and compare with the connector on my EPIA transceiver card. Also check the voltages. I did not see an inverter header for power and control. You may have to rig an adapter cable assemble for the inverter.

The video interface will use n-bits per color, where you have three colors: Red, Green, and Blue, which comprise RGB. With 8-bits per color, you have 24-bits of information per pixel to generate 16,777,216 unique colors. See Figure on page 14 in the NL8060BC21-03 specification. 36-bits is probably too much and not supported by many panels, but hey, when us 24-bit guys are at the edge of a cliff, you can crank it to "11" with your 36-bit interface.

The LVDS controller will serialize the color data and transmit the information over the TDA, TDB, TDC, and TDD data lines driven by TCLK. I believe there are standards that define the source, parallel data mapping to the inputs of the LVDS controller (i.e. FPD-Link). See links below:

RGB Color Model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model

THC63LVDM LVDS 24Bit/18Bit COLOR HOST-LCD PANEL INTERFACE (cited in NEC LCD spec)
http://www.thine.co.jp/products/LVDS...VDM83R_63R.pdf

FPD-Link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPD-Link

I'm playing catch up, that's all I can help with for now. Good luck.

thermoptic · 11-06-2007, 01:09 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by bl3nd3r

Thermoptic. I hope you have survived the busy month at work and look forward to your progress on this over the next few weeks. What exactly do you mean by having to design your own interposer?

I am working on putting a carputer in a 2001 Lincoln LS and am hoping that either the 6 or 8 will fit into the car. Once I get the dash kit in for the car I am going to take a look and see if it will fit and if this is a viable solution.

Hey bl3nd3r, I'm hanging in there. Getting caught up on e-mail, and addressing other important interrupts: Half-Life 2: Ep 2, Halo 3,

The real world can really get in the way of hobbies...

By interposer, I mean a hardware adapter that will mate the LCD panel to the IR touchscreen, and in turn to the bezel. This will be either metal or plastic. Since I have all the detailed drawing dimensions from the various specs, I could leverage rapid prototype house such as eMachineShop or protocase. This way others could leverage my work if they opt for this NEC and IR touchscreen combination. My original goal was to assemble a kit for the store, but the 8.4" LCD size and IR TS with large bezel will quickly bar this from many installations.

Hopefully you have enough room for the 8.4" in the Lincoln.

Debugging the LVDS cable will take some time. I am thinking it may be faster to purchase an existing cable, with molded LVDS Hirose connector and wire in my longer cable. I may need a scope or logic analyzer to fully resolve the problem, but I'm not there yet. I will attack with DMM first, to ring out the connections.

thermoptic · 11-06-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Iceman_jkh

Thermoptic (and all),

I decided to purchase a transflective LCD from MotorCityTech.

I still have my Xenarc 840TSV which works perfectly - I thought the LCD had died, but as it turns out, only the 22pF cap on the invertor board blew. I have now replaced it and the entire unit works fine.

Regardless of this, I have always wanted a transflective display. I bought an 8.4" LCD from MotorCity Tech that has had the transflective upgrade performed to it already. It is an exact match to the original LCD in the xenarc

. It is also 800x600 native. (I had thought about 1024x768, but the line must be drawn somewhere. And in all honesty 800x600 looks amazing for CarPC/FE's - Desktop/Wordprocessing/Excel is the only thing I think that would benefit, and probably shouldnt be ocurring in the car

).

A Xenarc 840TSV is only $329 USD at the moment + $350 for the replacement transflective LCD would get you a very easy (and relatively not too expensive) xflec touchscreen solution.

I will report back with pics and a review once I install it in my car, but that wont be for a few weeks - until the fabrication is finished, as I dont want the new screen scratched!!

I'll try get some pics out-of-car in the sun in the meantime though.

Hope this provides another option for people to consider.

Thanks
Ice

Hey Ice, I was initially planning to purchase the transflective 840TSV from MCT. I contacted MCT and almost bought, but then I started digging and opted to go the DIY route. It is definitely more painful, but I am a masochist and I wanted to learn more. MCT has been great in helping me down this road.

Once I have the video system "functional", I plan to provide a complete parts kit list with all costs and a pros/cons list. For example, I won't be able to integrate a backup camera with this current configuration. Hopefully I can finish all of this by the end of the year.

Glad to hear you salvaged your original 840TSV.

thermoptic · 11-06-2007, 01:59 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by sillyrabbit

I have also been following this thread with great interest. I have a large but somewhat inconveniently sized aperture I wish to make use of for locating a touchscreen (8.5" x 5.1")

I recently found this screen.

http://www.trident-uk.co.uk/componen...t_display.html

Any comments?

This LCD is using Low Temperature PolySilicon (LTPS) TFT technology which provides higher resolution. The brightness, CR, response time, and viewing angle for the LTD089EXWS seem to be a little low:

http://www.toshiba.com/taec/componen...ide_041607.pdf

Compare this data to other manufacturers.

bl3nd3r · 11-06-2007, 09:30 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by thermoptic

Hey bl3nd3r, I'm hanging in there. Getting caught up on e-mail, and addressing other important interrupts: Half-Life 2: Ep 2, Halo 3,

The real world can really get in the way of hobbies...

By interposer, I mean a hardware adapter that will mate the LCD panel to the IR touchscreen, and in turn to the bezel. This will be either metal or plastic. Since I have all the detailed drawing dimensions from the various specs, I could leverage rapid prototype house such as eMachineShop or protocase. This way others could leverage my work if they opt for this NEC and IR touchscreen combination. My original goal was to assemble a kit for the store, but the 8.4" LCD size and IR TS with large bezel will quickly bar this from many installations.

Hopefully you have enough room for the 8.4" in the Lincoln.

Debugging the LVDS cable will take some time. I am thinking it may be faster to purchase an existing cable, with molded LVDS Hirose connector and wire in my longer cable. I may need a scope or logic analyzer to fully resolve the problem, but I'm not there yet. I will attack with DMM first, to ring out the connections.

thermoptic thanks for all the information about your project. I actually have access to a few rapid prototyping machines through my school and hopefully can reproduce your design once you are done.

I have decided to actually go with the 6.4" screen so that I can also put the dvd drive underneath it. I may end up having to find a different touchscreen if the type you are using won't work for me.

I hope you can get the screen issues worked out. It is always a bummer when things just don't work, but also rewarding when you figure it out.

Iceman_jkh · 11-06-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by thermoptic

For example, I won't be able to integrate a backup camera with this current configuration.

Thermoptic,

Unfortunately the 840TSV is the only xenarc version which does not include reverse camera auto-switch. Boy was I angry when I found this out (via testing after I bought it - because the sales person I spoke to told em the wrong thing)

As a result, I scoured the net (literally!!) and found this device which does the switching for me, and works like a charm!

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/revi...switchbox.html

Just an idea, for those who wish to use the Xenarc840 (and any other solution without auto-switch).

Hope that helps
Ice

ps> Funny thing is, for all the people who complained about wanting an autoswitch device. I dont think anyone has given two hoots since I wrtote that review a while ago. And the device works perfectly!

thermoptic · 02-09-2008, 12:23 AM

I grew tired of watching the dust collect on my setup. This week I researched the connectors and the wiring diagrams.

JAE FI-S20S Panel Connector
For the JAE connector, pin 1 is located near the top, when the LCD is upright. See section 4.5.3 in the NL8060BC21-03 panel specification for details. The pin out is located in section 4.5.1.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/1127.pdf
http://www.jae-connector.com/en/pdf/SJ031450.pdf
JAE FI-S20S (LVDS Cable Connector)
JAE FI-SE20P-HFE (NEC NL8060BC21-03 CN1)

LVDS-07 Hirose Connector
For the Hirose connector, pin 1 is located near the VIA VT1631L IC, in the upper left corner. There is also a pin 1 arrow marker on the Hirose SMT connector edge.
http://www.hirose.co.jp/cataloge_hp/e53600014.pdf
HRS DF13-40DS-1.25C (LVDS Cable Connector)
HRS DF13A-40DP-1.25V (LVDS-07 SMT Header)

Wiring Issues
I thought my cable assembly might be suspect. I had resoldered a loose connection and spliced in a power pin to FRC (as the LVDS07 only supplies two 3.3V pins). I was also concerned about the length of the cable causing resistivity issues (voltage drop and signal degradation).

I did some research and found that Digital View sells a $40 LVDS Panel Cable (P/N 426493000-3) with the proper connectors, only different wiring order for the 40-pin Hirose connector. The Digital View cable is designed for the ALR-1400 LCD controller board.

LVDS Panel Cable (P/N 426493000-3)
http://mouser.com/catalog/specsheets...26493000-3.pdf

For the Digital View cable, the default JAE FI-S20S wiring is fine. I found that by using a medium-sized safety pin, you can pop the pins on the 40-pin Hirose DF-40DS-1.25C and rearrange the wires for the VIA LVDS-07 card. You only need to pry up the outside tab on the Hirose connector to clear the retaining barb on the Hirose metal connector. Be very careful and only pry enough to remove the pin. You can use the safety pin to position the pins before clicking into place. This requires patience, so grab a cold one and relax before you tackle this task. Also, check twice and insert once.

Code:

=====================             =========================
  NEC NL8060BC21-03                 Via LVDS-07 Card
  JAE FI-S20S                       Hirose DF13-40DS-1.25C 
  20-pin Connector                 40-Pin Connector
=====================             =========================

(Top)
 1  D3+                            36  A3P (Differential signal)
 2  D3-                            34  A3M (Differential signal)
 3  DPS (FRW scan/REV scan)        11  GND
 4  FRC (24-bit color, 16M)         4  PVDD (+3.3V)
 5  GND                            32  GND
 6  CLK+                           30  CLK1P (Differential signal)
 7  CLK-                           28  CLK1M (Differential signal)
 8  GND                            26  GND 
 9  D2+                            24  A2P (Differential signal)
10  D2-                            22  A2M (Differential signal)
11  GND                            20  GND
12  D1+                            18  A1P (Differential signal)
13  D1-                            16  A1M (Differential signal)
14  GND                            14  GND
15  D0+                            12  A0P (Differential signal)
16  D0-                            10  A0M (Differential signal)
17  GND                             6  GND
18  GND                             5  GND
19  VCC                             2  PVDD (+3.3V)
20  VCC                             2  PVDD (+3.3V)
(Bottom)

Despite probing both the original cable and the new Digital View cable, I can't clear the distorted color issue. The signals and voltages are correct. It has to be the LVDS-07 card or a BIOS setting on the EN15000G. There are no clear markings on the "LVDS-07G" to denote the "-18" versus the "-24" suffix. I believe the option is related to a resistor change to set the mode, as it would make sense to use the same PCB to decrease manufacturing costs.

Unfortunately, I could not find a datasheet for the VT1631L part or the schematic for the LVDS-07G card. I ordered the LVDS-07G from mini-box.com. Their site uses the same photos for the 18-bit and 24-bits. In the event that I had a "-18" version, I tried the 262K color options with the panel:

LVDS-07 18-bit Color
FRC connects to GND
D3+ connects to GND
D3- connects to GND

I originally used the 24-bit wiring.

LVDS-07 24-bit Color
FRC connects to PVDD
D3+ connects to A3P
D3- connects to A3M

Attack Plan

Grab a cold one.
Update the EN15000G BIOS from 1.07 to current 1.09. Wishful thinking I suppose.
Investigate LCD BIOS options with 18-bit setting. There are 16 different LCD type settings in the BIOS. I believe that none deal with color, only scanning and positioning information. They range from 00 to 0F hexadecimal. I use VGA+LCD. The VGA output is always visible and the color is correct.
Try another LVDS-07G-24 card. I noticed that my LVDS-07G card is missing an IC for U3. The image on mini-box website has U3 populated. Perhaps this is not needed?
Try another LVDS controller, such as the ALR-1400 (unfortunately it is $140). I really don't want to do this. Hopefully the VIA EN15000G chipset can handle the panel color code encoding formats described in Section 4.6.2 and 4.6.3.

This car PC project is demanding a new level of patience and endurance.

thermoptic · 02-09-2008, 10:46 AM

I upgraded the BIOS to version 1.09. As expected, it didn't change anything. I still need to find the optimal BIOS LCD hex code. I am currently using 01. There are fifteen total and I imagine they define resolution and refresh rate. Does anyone know if there is an industry standard for these hex numbers?

I'll Google more on this later. BTW, I am using the CRT+LCD option, not VGA+LCD as I mentioned in the previous post. The VGA output always has the correct color.

LinITX.com has detailed photos of both the LVDS-07-18 and the LVDS-07-24. The "-18" has a sticker and resistor packs near the VIA VT1631L IC (U1). The "-24" has no sticker and no resistor packs. Both versions do not have U3.

Well, it appears that I do have the correct 24-bit version and it has the right components populated on the PCB. I will switch back to the 24-bit wiring configuration, which I have not done for this new Digital View cable. Hopefully this will work. If not, then I may have a bad LVDS-07-24, or the VIA chipset cannot handle the correct color code encoding. I don't think I have a bad panel as it displays all the pixels and basic R-G-B colors are all present. This has to be a dithering issue with the color depth.

Here are the two different photos for the LVDS-07 18-bit and 24-bit flavors.

thermoptic · 02-09-2008, 02:34 PM

Well, I rewired for the 24-bit color mode on the shorter Digital View LVDS cable but no luck. I quadruple checked the wiring and I probed every pin on the LCD's JAE connector. All signal levels are valid!

With all the delays I'm having, I decided to drop Gentoo and buy Win XP. The OEM version was under $140 on NewEgg. I decided to move forward with the install. Perhaps I need VIA video drivers installed to tell the chipset that it should talk 24-bit and not 18-bit color? This should be handled at the LVDS-07 level, but, maybe not?

I decided to purchase a WD Scorpio WD1600BEVS 160GB 5400 RPM SATA 150 HDD to meet the WinXP OEM requirement. This doubled the size of my current HDD, so I can setup a dual-boot to one day return to Linux.

Well, it turns out you need a floppy to load the VIA RAID drivers for the SATA HDD, but the EPIA EN15000G doesn't have a floppy. Not to fear, as I have an Iomega USB floppy. I soon learned that while you can hit <F6> and direct the Win XP installer to locate the SATA RAID driver, you cannot access the USB floppy later on in the install process after Win XP starts and ditches the boot-up BIOS settings. I was stuck with Win XP installer unable to find the floppy.

I learned that the Iomega USB Floppy is actually an OEM Citizen X1 USB Floppy driver. The driver INF file tells Win XP to use the usbstor.sys driver for the appropriate Vendor ID (VID) and Product ID (PID). I thought about creating my own Citizen USB driver disk with a TXTSETUP.OEM file, but I was worried about Win XP knowing how to locate the device. I Googled and found that you can add a single line to the VIA SATA RAID TXTSETUP.OEM file so that it will look for the viaraid.sys file on the USB floppy. Here is the source link:

http://www.msfn.org/board/F6-Driver-...py-t82711.html

I added the following line:

Code:

id = "USB\VID_08BD&PID_1100", "usbstor" #--Iomega

Windows XP is now installing to the SATA drive!

Now, back to the regularly scheduled LVDS color depth problem.

thermoptic · 02-10-2008, 12:55 AM

Reviewing the EPIA-EN motherboard User's Guide, I found a PANEL jumper block to select the following:

TVD4/DVPOD4 – AGP Port Muxing (ON: 2 12-bit DVI interface, OFF: 1 24-bit Panel interface)
TVD5/DVPOD5 – Dedicated DVI Port Configuration (ON: TMDS Encoder, OFF: TV Encoder)

I thought I had checked all of the jumpers long ago. How did I miss this jumper block? Well, it was NOT populated on my board!

I tried using some tweezers to short the connection but I'm not sure if it is horizontal or vertical. The photo of the board indicates horizontal but the document suggests vertical.

LinITX has a photo of the EPIA-EN 15000 without the PANEL jumper block. Perhaps it was lost in an update of the PCB?

http://www2.multithread.co.uk/mtcsho...board_main.jpg

I'll look for updated docs. I need to get some rest and resume debugging tomorrow.

thermoptic · 02-10-2008, 02:48 PM

The LVDS-07G user's guide has pictures that use the channel two wiring. I rewired for channel two, but I see the same problem. I probed the PANEL jumper block and determined the TVD4/DVPOD4 and TVD5/DVPOD5 positions. The TVD5 modified the colors (for DVI), but they were still corrupted.

I have submitted a request to the VIA EPIA technical forums. We'll see what they can do. The EPIA/VIA documents are very lacking!

In my recent Googling, I came across Kontron. These guys are serious about systems solutions. They include panel kits with supported LCD list.

MiniITX Family
http://emea.kontron.com/index.php?id=82&cat=61

Panel Configurator
http://emea.kontron.com/index.php?id=1139#

It comes down to cost and time. I may just buy an external LCD controller, such as the ALR-1400, and sell my custom LVDS cabling. An external LCD controller would also provide auxiliary support for a second video source (i.e. back-up camera). In the end, I just want something that works with this panel!

thermoptic · 02-13-2008, 07:54 PM

The Digital View LCD configuration page states that the ALR-1400 has not been officially tested with the NL8060BC21-03, but it does support the NL8060BC21-02. I found the "-02" panel specifications and LVDS receiver is the same. I ordered the ALR-1400 from Digikey and it should arrive on Friday.

My initial post links to the Multicell website for the NEC panel specification. I visited their main page to find they offer a wealth of LCD panel information. They market a family of LCD controllers. Their site offers a search tool for locating cataloged specifications for LCD panels, inverters, and cable assemblies.

Multicell Controller Matrix
http://www.multicell.it/index.php?body=104&lang=eng#

TFT Panel Search
http://www.multicell.it/index.php?bo...=eng&ricerca=1

Inverter Search
http://www.multicell.it/index.php?bo...=eng&ricerca=1

Cables - Adapters - Accessories
http://www.multicell.it/index.php?body=41&lang=eng

This site serves as a model for how to organize and present LCD-related specifications.

One benefit of ditching the VIA LVDS-07 is that I can now reconnect the LinkSys WMP300 Wireless-N PCI adapter. This card connects to an external antenna array that is handy for car PC installations.

thermoptic · 02-16-2008, 01:18 AM

I received the ALR-1400 today. I had to rewire the Digital View cable back to the original configuration. I ordered the inverter power and control cables later in the week. They should arrive tomorrow or early next week. In the interim, I am leveraging the LVDS-07G to power the backlight on the panel. I double-checked all the jumper/switchblock settings on the ALR-1400, and configured for the NL8060BC21-02 panel, which has the same config as my -03 flavor.

After checking my power connections, I connected the ALR-1400 to the NEC panel and powered on the system. ALL WHITE PANEL! I quickly powered everything down and took a deep breath.... I remembered that I was using the LCD only settings in the BIOS, but now I was connected to the VGA port on the EPIA. I cleared CMOS and rebooted. I reconfigured for CRT+LCD and rebooted. Once again, all white panel.

I probed all the CN1 pins to learn that the ALR-1400 was powered, but turned off.

I reviewed the ALR-1400 and I noticed the JP6 jumper was open. I thought this was automatic on. I shorted JP6 and rebooted. I can't tell you how many times I have looked at a corrupted EPIA BIOS boot logo. Seeing it in 24-bit unadulterated color was a beauty to behold. Unfortunately, I am now battling Win XP. It senses the LVDS-07G card and kills the VGA port. Once I wire in the inverter control on the ALR-1400, I can finally ditch the LVDS-07G.

If I ever become outrageously wealthy, I'm going to fund a global recall of all LVDS-07G cards. They will be hand destroyed in unique and creative ways. The remains will be flown, via rockets, into the sun.

Here's a few pics of the ALR-1400 wiring and the 24-bit BIOS color image. As you can see, this setup is way too fragile to move in its current condition. I'll try to get some outdoor pictures next weekend.

turbocad6 · 02-16-2008, 01:39 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by thermoptic

If I ever become outrageously wealthy, I'm going to fund a global recall of all LVDS-07G cards. They will be hand destroyed in unique and creative ways. The remains will be flown, via rockets, into the sun.

^^^that's some funny **** right there

glad it's getting closer. have you tried it on another pc to see it at high res?