NEC 8.4" Transflective Solution - Custom Kit

thermoptic · 09-09-2007, 03:26 PM

I have constrained my display choice to a 8.4” sized display. I currently own a Shark SHK804 that I purchased in haste on the cheap. I should have waited, since deep down I know I need transflective!

I have searched the forums and read all of the older transflective threads. The safest choice appears to be hand-selecting components since the Lilliput and Xenarc solutions use older, less appealing, components that can vary with production cycles. With all the time I will invest in this car PC endeavor, I want to be truly happy when I’m done. I have bound my display happiness by an $800 limit.

NEC appears to be well regarded by many posters, so I ran some Google searches. Here’s some useful links related to NEC transflective panels:

NEC ST-NLT Overview:
http://www.nec-lcd.com/en/technology/nlt_st_nlt.html
NEC Press Releases (May 2007):
http://www.necus.com/companies/2/NEC...ew_Modules.pdf
http://www.am.necel.com/news/pressre...mos5-21-07.pdf
NEC TFT 2007 Product List:
http://www.eu.necel.com/_pdf/EPMC-PU-0018-2.0.PDF

From the product list above, I see that the ST-NLT is available in smaller 8.4” and 6.5” sizes. I want 800x600 or 1024x768 native resolution, 500+ cd/m2 brightness, and 500+ contrast ratio. This eliminates the 10.4” models, which would also require more dash fabrication in my Honda Accord. The clear winners for the 8.4” and 6.5” form factors are the NL8060BC21-03 and NL10276BC13-01C, respectively.

Note that the 6.5” NL10276BC13-01C is newer with LED backlight and TBD power consumption. It may be brand new and more difficult to locate. The NEC SID booth PR indicates an LED version of the 8.4” NL8060BC21-XX is in the works, but the NL8060BC21-03 was released in 2006 and is attainable today. Both panels use a LVDS RGB interface. I’m hoping I can purchase a suitable I/O card for my EPIA EN15000G. I still need to answer this question.

8.4” NL8060BC21-03 Data Sheet:
http://www.multicell.it/main/get_doc...8cd3018fd6301a

6.5” NL10276BC13-01C Data Sheet:
http://www.msc-ge.com/download/displ...3-01c-0190.pdf

With the NL8060BC21-03 part number in hand, I performed some more searches to find distributors. Some press releases indicated that distributors sampled the ST-NLT in single quantities. In a January 2006 article, Automotive DesignLine indicated the NL8060BC21-03 was estimated at $400 USD in single quantity (http://www.automotivedesignline.com/products/175801847). I found that Avnet sells these in lots of ten for $352.59! I would be willing to purchase at $375 or even $400 from a middleman.

I found more vendors that list the NL8060BC21-03 on their site but I haven’t inquired yet. Has anyone had success with single quantity panel orders from anyone in the following list? Turbocad6, since you are a LCD Jedi Master, what would you advise?

http://www.horizontechnology.com/too...ber_search.php
http://www.lcdsolar.com/products/All...FRDqgAodYnYE8Q
http://www.oemplus.net/product.asp?s...id=1&sort3id=1
http://www.msc-ge.com/index_e.html
http://www.review-displays.co.uk/nec_tft_1.asp

Based upon my searches and eBay reviews, I think the following pricing should be viable:

NEC NL8060BC21-03 LCD: $400
LVDS Cable $20
LVDS RGB I/O Controller Card: $40
NEC 84PW041 Inverter: $40
SAW or Cap. Touchscreen Kit: $200
Total $700

This combination yields the most superior 8.4" solution that I have found. Has anyone used the NL8060BC21-03? Does anyone recommend something else?

If this panel is viable, could the MP3 store bundle this as a kit? In bulk, they could do it for $600 (touchscreen and lcd panel discounts) and still sell for $700. I would buy it. Maybe add an optional mounting bracket and bezel for $50-$100. You wouldn't have backlogs with optically aligning filter stacks with resistive touchscreens as SAW or cap. doesn't require this procedure (thou wouldn't cover the 6.5" crowd). I think a kit solution sold from the store would totally 0WN!

thermoptic · 09-09-2007, 06:44 PM

I have created a thread in the Input Devices forum to discuss suitable non-resistive touchscreens for the panel.

mbkowns · 09-09-2007, 07:42 PM

I think that might be a good idea nice research. I would like to what mp3car does with this info.

turbocad6 · 09-10-2007, 01:55 AM

hey man, I'm far from an expert when it comes to lcd's, but I do play around with them a bit

nec makes great industrial panels, I have a dual bulb really bright nec 8.4" that's 1024X768, 160x160 viewing angles, looks fantastic. this new technology looks great, & there starting out with a really bright backlight too, unlike transflective, which hurts the backlight to even less than the panel was rated before transflective enhanced., only disapointing thing with the panel you chose is the 800X600, if that was xga it'd be a clear winner so far.

there are competing & equally impressive advancements from all of the major lcd manufactures, boe hydis, nec, sharp, au optronics & others all have pretty cool technology either here or almost here, if these are here & you can live with 800X600 then you can't go wrong with an nec panel, that's for sure

I think your off on your $40 for an lvds controller though, a premium screen like this should get a decent controller, the panel is dual mode, 6 bit or 8 bit, 8 bit is more colors & the better way to go if you can find a controller that'll do 8 bit vga, but 6 bit is fine really if need be. I'd expect a decent controller to be over $100 really by itself.

I guess if your set on getting this panel reach out & see who will sell you one, buying 10 sounds like a pain, considering everything else necissary to put a whole package togeather your talking over 7K investment for 10 whole setups, to make what? you'd have to make a few grand to do a whole deal like this I'd say, so how expensive will retail be? pretty up there... no one is going to lay out all that money & r&d to sell them for no profit. I guess if these panels are really that great then they'd sell...

I'm doing an install right now with a sharp 10.4" panel that's full reflective, totally sick in the sun, with no backlight at all! the technology with smaller lcd's is getting better all the time, this is latest greatest so far from nec & it sure looks cool

BiGGy · 09-10-2007, 02:56 AM

Also note that MCT(http://motorcitytech.netfirms.com/) do brightness and transflective upgrades to any LCD. I got a quote on my 15.4" wxga and got priced $110 for a brightness increase to 500nit and $490 for a transflective enhancement. These prices do not include shipping costs and take no longer then 2 weeks for both upgrades. With a smaller screen the brightness and price may differ.

Also don't take a DIY ultrabright LCD out of the picture. I have purchased everything I need to finish mine and it hasn't gone over $800US in total and includes touchscreen.

thermoptic · 09-10-2007, 04:05 AM

Turbocad, what is the model number for your NEC 8.4"? I'll update my budget for the LVDS controller as I pulled that number from some EPIA adapter cards I saw from a quick search. I plan to research the LVDS controller next (weekend that is, as the work week is about to rear its ugly head). Hopefully I'll find something compatible with the EPIA 150000G.

The AFFS Ver. V technology from Boe Hydis looks impressive. I'll see if they carry 8.4" models that match capabilities of the NL8060BC21-03. So many choices...

BiGGy, it seems to me that the transflective upgrades are a great solution for existing owners who have already invested in an lcd with custom dash install, but I think they are a bandage for the older generation lcd panels. As I am starting from scratch, I wanted to leverage a new panel with transflective, high brightness, and high contrast ratio all built-in. I am entering the game at a point where this is actually possible. Thanks for the MCT link. Perhaps this company will deal the NL8060BC21-03 in single quantity? They advertise custom kitting on the site. I'll check if they do optical bonding. Your 15" XGA will be killer when complete!

turbocad6 · 09-10-2007, 11:29 AM

ahh, the more I think about it, I think the 8.4" panel I have that's 1024x768 in not an nec at all, I think it's an industrial panel by au optronics... I've got to dig it out & see, it's buried in storage somewhere

changeip · 09-10-2007, 11:51 AM

thermoptic - thanks for your hard work researching all of this. There has got to be better LCDs out there. You can buy a 22" monitor at any corner store and it's less than any lilliput or xenarc out there. I can't understand why smaller costs more, it's not like it's hard to fit all that in there...

Quote: Originally Posted by thermoptic

6.5” NL10276BC13-01C Data Sheet:
http://www.msc-ge.com/download/displ...3-01c-0190.pdf

The link above shows a 650cd/m panel. I assume once you add the touchscreen you come out to about 500-550cd/m (I could be wrong?). Once you are there, why not spend $350 for the Xenarc that comes complete ? This is interesting, is it purely film enhacements that make all the difference in the sun, or is it strictly the backlight brightness and contrast ratio on the panel ?

I see a replacement LCD backlight part number 65LHS13 in that data sheet. I wonder where the specs are on that.

There is no reason these panels are expensive other than they are produced in lower volumes. The LCD mfg's sure seem to spend a lot of development effort in the 6.5 and 8.4 range still however.

thermoptic · 09-11-2007, 01:13 AM

Turbocad6, no worries, I was just curious. No need to dig. I ran a quick search on LCD product offerings from Boe Hydis. I could not find an 8.4” solution.

The 10.4” displays are nice! I read that Boe Hydis offers the best viewing angel with patented FFS (Fringe Field Switching) technology, which extends conventional IPS technology by offering even wider viewing angles (full 180 degrees) and provides better transmittance. I could relocate the dash A/C controls to make room for the 10.4” and .... err, nah ... I better stick with the 8.4”.

I ran brief searches through Toshiba and Sharp websites for 8.4" transflective panels. Sharp offers QVGA transflective solutions for mobile applications and they have an 11/2006 PR announcing 12.1” transflective. Cursory review did not yield much.

Changeip, you raise a good question. I think the ST-NLT LCD technology plays a big part. This is most likely patented IP that is held close to the vest.

I was eyeing a transflective Xenarc 700TSV for a while. As I researched more, I quickly wanted native 800x600 resolution. The Xenarc 8” doesn’t meet my brightness and contrast ratio (CR) requirements. The Xenarc 7” 700TSV has great brightness but it is too small and the CR is lower. I think Xenarc lists the brightness and CR without the touchscreen, since the TS and non-TS models share the same specs. The same is true of the viewing angle. Has anyone confirmed this? I am also curious if the Xenarc 700TSV supports 16M colors? I didn’t see explicitly stated on their site but I assume it does.

From what I have read, you won’t get specs from Lilliput or Xenarc, as this is competitive information. You never know the details until you get the panel specification, and panels vary with production runs.

I think the transflective upgrade will diminish the brightness; same for the resistive touchscreen. I don't know how much though. With a capacitive or SAW touchscreen, I think the brightness reduction is very minimal, but it looks like optical bonding is needed to eliminate reflections. I suppose I could eliminate the touchscreen altogether and use a touchpad, but I would probably be unhappy later.

The 6.5” NL10276BC13-01C is very new. I didn’t find much info on its backlight specs, but I found a manufacturer for the LED driver. They should know the required raw brightness of the backlight assembly. Here are the links:

http://www.ergpower.com/pub/ledcross.asp
http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/LED%20.../SFDLB3638.pdf

On the site, you will also see references to the 84LHS06 lamp holder for the 8.4” NL8060BC21-03. Maybe they are proposing an LED conversion kit for this model, since the NEC datasheet lists CCFL? See the SFR3658 and SFDLB3676 parts. So, did I already find options to pimp out the 8.4” with LED?

I am starting to feel good about the 8.4” NL8060BC21-03. Time to hound the distributors...

turbocad6 · 09-11-2007, 02:05 AM

the boe hydis are my favorite screens, I'm using them in my minivan, I also high bright modded the main screen. the hydis panels are sick, they are unlike any lcd, in that at rest, the pixels are black rather than white, a normal lcd powered with no signal is white, but the hydis is black at rest. the screen with a super bright backlight almost has that "light brite toy" look to it, contrast like you wouldn't belive, & the viewing angles are just sick, don't dismiss this important spec, some lcd's deal better with light but limit the viewing angles too, the hydis are 175- 185 deg all directions.

check out these viewing angles just as a reference:

I like 10.4" & up... your choices open up a lot,^^^ that ones a 12.1" hydis.

a good smaller screen I would use in an install is an 8.9" transflective touchscreen,high res 1280x768 native to the board. I use it as my main pc screen really, as it's the screen on my tablet. fujitsu p1610, I'm dying to come across the right install for this tablet, & I bought it with in dash install in mind, it does not have killer viewing angles though, but fine if used in landscape mode & you angle it right. a whole carpc, transflective, touch, pentium m ultra low voltage, hard drive, ram, a legit xp tablet install, almost everything you need for around $1,500 or so, maybe less. just a thought to share

changeip · 09-11-2007, 11:47 AM

Those 2 links above look like the actual PWM circuit used to control the LEDs, but not the LEDs themselves. Did you run across anywhere that states the actual LED assembly they are using ? Some day we will get to the bottom of this stupid, overpriced, complicated method of getting a bright LCD in your car : )

Sam

thermoptic · 09-11-2007, 01:52 PM

Turbocad6, that is an IMPRESSIVE viewing angle! I wish they offered an 8.4" solution.

Changeip, if you look closer on the first link, you will see that they offer both driver and LED rails. The SFR3658 is the LED rail (no datasheet available), but it should fit in the NEC 8.4" 84LHS06 holder. This rail is driven by the SFDLB3676 (75 mA output), but maybe the SFDLB3631 (100mA output) could be used to drive the rail to increase brightness? I need the specs on the SFR3658.

I submitted a sales inquiry to ERG regarding the items above. They offer single quantity items in their online store, but not these products. It appears they are providing 8.4" and 10.4" LED kits as suitable drop-in replacements for NEC and Sharp panels.

changeip · 09-11-2007, 01:58 PM

nice - i am very interested in finding out what you find out : )

I've got a LCD LED backlight coming in the mail now as well... waiting to see how this one works and will report back when i get them. It shows 5000nits for a 7" size. 24 leds I believe.

http://h1x.com/permanent/SSB-CEL15890UWW-24.pdf

Sam

turbocad6 · 09-11-2007, 02:15 PM

I tried to get a 16 bulb inverter from erg... they are not very responsive from what I've seen & was never able to get it.

a lot of these guys are more into trying to get an oem to pick up there product, & have no interest in selling single units, sometimes I approach as a fleet operations manager for my company & I want to buy one sample, with promise of a possible future contract. a hobbiest has much less chance of even getting a reply most times

thermoptic · 09-12-2007, 02:20 AM

Changeip, with 5,000 nits you may need some sunblock.

I saw that unit on Digikey for around $40. What driver do you plan to use? What is the cost? Will you have thermal issues?

I was happy to learn of the ECR equation from the Rugged PC Review. I would like to know the reflectivity rating for the MicroTouch ClearTek II or the Elo IntelliTouch SAW touchscreen surfaces. The ClearTek has a an Anti-Glare (AG) coating, which diffuses light, while what is really needed is the Anti-Reflective (AR) coating, which cancels the reflected light. It appears that this is custom optical work.

The 8.4" NEC panel spec states it has an AR coating but doesn't state a hard reflectivity rating. Using data from the article, with let's say it has a reflectivity of 1% (half of normal untreated panel). The naked surface of the glass touchscreen would be 4% for top and 4% for bottom. This yields a total reflectivity of 9%.

For the stock 8.4", the ECR would be 1 + (600 / (10000 x 0.09)) = 1.6:1.

For the 8.4" with upgraded 5,000 nit backlight, the ECR would be 1 + (5000 / (10000 x 0.09)) = 6.5:1.

The viability of the upgrade would depend on the ST-NLT technology and where it will start to wash out. This is why I am reluctant to use too much back lighting. With a default CR of 600:1 on the 8.4", I'm thinking it would fare well with double, maybe triple the luminosity. Is there a rule of thumb here with current contrast ratio and max brightness limits?

I just don't look forward to a DIY backlight project with custom housing. This is why the ERG solution was so promising. Optical bonding would drop the reflectivity to 4% so ECR = 1 + (600 / (10,000 x 0.04)) = 2.5:1. The 5000 nit would be 12.5:1. Keep in mind that I am a total greenhorn and my reflectivity numbers could be way off.

Turbocad6, I should create an OEM integrator shell website, say Thermoptic Industries International, with one of the cheap hosting companies, a few clicks deep, with a pay-as-you go mobile number. Request a plant tour and on-site visit up front, but only after you have reviewed purchased sample to verify their competence. You know, before you serious consider them for the 1K/month kiosk production ramp.

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