How much airflow do LCDs need? And, waterproof?

wompser · 03-27-2002, 04:37 PM

So here is a question: Do I need to worry any if I am going to seal off an LCD monitor completely? I looked, but can’t seem to find much info. An explanation of my situation may clarify my question some. I have a Jeep Wrangler (1998) and very little space for my installation. I’ve decided I’m actually going to do the whole thing on in a custom built weatherproof metal box that will go from the roll bar between the two front passengers to the area above the rear view mirror. (The computers case will be roughly 34” long and 8” wide, 5” or so high. Should have plenty of room for a Sproggy PS, mobo, HD, DVD etc.) I think I am going to use a store bought TFT LCD. I plan on having this monitor swivel down in the fashion of a visor in front of the passengers seat. When not in use, the monitor will be parallel to the ground, up under the roof. My question is this: what about the rain if I leave the top down accidentally? Of course, I would hope I was never this scatterbrained if the weather was lousy, but I’d hate to accidentally ruin a $300 monitor. Can I just seal it up somehow? I’m thinking a little bead of silicon around the screen edges and maybe bondo in whatever holes there are in the back of the monitor. I’m not yet sure how I will address the buttons on the front of the screen, probably re-wire them with weatherproof momentary switches I guess. Has anyone had any experience with this? I assume those holes are there for some purpose, but what is it exactly?

By the way, I’ll probably buy this one: Rad5 15 inch, ~$300, 250 nits, 300:1 contrast ratio, http://www.compusa.com/products/prod..._code=50195098 ) My reason for a store bought monitor is that I don’t have to monkey around with controllers, backlights inverters, custom cables, and all the other stuff. This one seems to be bright enough, though probably not enough for direct sun. I live in Seattle anyway so rain is more often the problem! It seems that the consensus here is that consumer LCD monitors would be great but they are too big for most people’s needs. Is this about right? Is there any other good reason people tend to shy away from store bought LCD replacement screens? It seems like a heck of an idea, I don’t know why more people don’t just do this, if this is not the reason. I don’t think I’ll have a problem with it being too big, as it will be dropping down from the ceiling. Jeeps have a lot more headroom than most passenger cars. (Though no trunkspace!)

I’m excited to get to work on this thing. My needs are pretty different than everyone else’s on this board. I want my player to be completely self-contained and extremely durable. To that end, everything will be switched with the rubberized toggle switches and military grade hardware. Just wait, I’ll post picts of the whole thing as I go along….

Curt

mp3z24 · 03-27-2002, 05:15 PM

how can you prevent overheating if there are no vent holes in the case?

i doubt you can "perfectly" seal the case, how will any condensation/moisture get out?

what if the passenger puts the visor up and a rock hits the screen, or worse yet, what if the thing gets ripped off the visor when you are doing highway speeds with the top down?

i see too many possibilities for a lot of damage to a lot of your components. sorry to say, but i think this setup has a lot more thought needed.

~mike

edit....
"Jeeps have a lot more headroom than most passenger cars"
--- yes, but if you have a visor with a 15 inch screen hanging off it, there is going to be very little room to see out the windshield. i assume this is a wrangler, and when i was in my buddies at school, the windshield was only about 15 inches tall. that would probably leave about 1-3 inches at the bottom, right above the dash. think about it!!

Rob · 03-27-2002, 05:17 PM

From what I can see, your LCD is going to be underneith the box with the PC inside, yes?

If so it should be pretty sheltered from the rain, unless you have strange sideways rain

so you should be OK on the water proof front as it'll only be exposed to a bit of moisture.

There are some industrial LCDs (might be playing with one at work in the near future) which you you can attack with a pressure washer, without any problems. I can find out the name of the companies whomake them if you like. Price wise there not too bad.

The main reason people avoid TFT monitors, and build there own is, as you said size. Most of us try and keep the car looking reasonable stock, and fitting in a 15" LCD, just isn't possible.

As for air flow I don't think it'll be a problem with the display, but I'm not sure about the PC sitting there in an air tight box, you'll probably need some kind of venting.

Rob

wompser · 03-27-2002, 05:38 PM

Good points! Actually let me clarify the design a little bit. There will be a box that runs between the two front seats, just underneath the roof. This will house all the computer's components except the monitor. The monitor itself will be mounted on a rotating bar off to the passengers side. It will flip down *like* a visor, but will be parallel to the ground when up for storage. I don't think I'm going to need to worry about rocks, they will hit the winshield not come over and hit the screen. Wind at highway screens should not be a problem either, it is actually not very windy in a Jeep with the top off, plus I plan on making the mounting bar VERY heavy duty. The bar the monitor is mounted on will have to support the whole weight of the monitor, and I don't want it shaking around.

I'm with you on the issue of space to see around. I'm not sure I care actually. In a jeep you are pretty close to the winshield and I think that it won't matter too much if I lose the diagonal visibility out of the front window some. I've been thinking quite a bit about it, I'm going to make a cardboard mock-up tonight and see how it works out for me on the visibility-headroom issue.

The condensation and overheating problems are ones I had not really considered. I suppose the only way to figure these out is with trial and error. Either that or just be careful about leaving the soft top up or hard top on...

The PC's box will be watertight (OK, water resistant at least), but not airtight so airflow there should not be a problem with a fan

The industrial LCD is an option I considered, but I would like to spend under $400 on the monitor and have not yet found one. The KDS RAD-5 has had good reviews on C-net, I think it may work for me, eventhough its form factor is bigger than I'd like. (still pretty small for what it is though.)

Thanks for your ideas and keep them comming! I love having people to bounce ideas off, my girlfriend and friends all roll their eyes when I even mention the word "project" to say nothing about their reaction when I mention "Jeep, MP3 or computer!"

wompser · 03-28-2002, 01:16 PM

Well, last night I pulled out a couple of old cardboard boxes and made a scale model of what I want to do. Good thing I did before I bought much. The monitor I was thingking about is about 14" by 14" Sounds small when you are sitting in front of a computer, but it sure is big when you stick it in your car! I thought I would have plenty of room in there, but in fact it is pretty crowded!

I'm still considering it however. Instead of flipping down like a sun visor, it may go above the passenger's side grab bar (dashboard) but this would make the airbag inopperable. Clearly I still have some figuring out to do. I must have the same dilemma that everyone else here has had at one point: How do you get a full sized screen with a tiny footprint? I wish someone could invent a good XVGA heads up display that I could use! Oh well. Maybe I'll look into those 7" Redant screens, though I had hoped to have a more functional computer than that would allow. Any thoughts?

mp3z24 · 03-28-2002, 01:27 PM

since you are obviously willing to spend some cash on this project, i will tell you to check out www.earthlcd.com . they have a bunch of lcds (obviously), some are full cased and others are just screen modules and cards.

check it out

~mike

ODYSSEY · 03-28-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wompser
...this would make the airbag inopperable.

I think you might what to get back to the drawing board. Disabling a factory/stock safety feature is illegal most places.

smoothswiss · 03-28-2002, 02:00 PM

Have you looked into the Datalux LMV10* 10.4 inch screens. I think this would be a great solution for what you are looking for. These screens are sealed shut (good gasket... even the screws have tiny o-rings) in a heavy duty aluminum and plastic case. I and several others on this forum have the touchscreen version of this monitor, which can be bought on ebay for under 300 dollars (currently I see only the non-touch version). These are great quality industrial screens. However, you have to be careful when buying a second hand model, since some of them have had a lot of use. Luckily mine seems to be in good condition with a backlight that is still very bright. The resolution is 640x480, which I thought for sure was gonna suck before I bought it, but it turns out that this resolution looks great on a 10.4 inch screen. DVD's look really nice since the display is tft active matrix, and the touchscreen rocks! I think this would fit perfect into your application. Do a search on this forum for Datalux, and you will find a lot of info.

smoothswiss · 03-28-2002, 02:07 PM

also, for the computer case, you could have the fan's on the bottom of the case, recessed a little, so that rain wouldn't get inside the case. Or you could figure out someway of turning the whole case into a heat sink if you are not using an overly powerful computer. Then everything could be self contained. Vents wouldn't be difficult as long as you make a baffle so that water coming down can't get in.

tation · 03-28-2002, 02:32 PM

Hey wompser, Check out the pics on my sig,
I purchased a 14.1" desktop LCD from compusa, took it out of the case, removed some stuff from my dash and mounted it in the dash. I am lucky in that my dash has lots of room.
I was tempted to go with some sort of flip down type setup, but I wanted more of a factory look, and I also was worried about cops seeing me use it, or people seeing it and wanting to steal it. I only paid $229 for my lcd at compusa, but it was onsale with a rebate too. but the normal price is only $299.
EarthLCD is a great place but I think they are a little over priced.
I had a question about your PC case that your thinking about also.. Wouldn't it be a little close to your head? Like if you went 4 wheeling, wouldn't you bump your head on it? I know it will be beside your head, but it sounds like it would be pretty close.
Been a while since I have been in a jeep though.

wompser · 03-28-2002, 03:07 PM

Wow! Thanks for all the responses! Like I said, its great to have people to bounce ideas off.

Mike: Yup, I checked out EarthLCD already. NOT impressed with their site, prices or the user interface. You would think they would invest a little money in getting that site to work well, be easy to undestand, product pictures/white papers, etc. I also think their prices may be pretty high.

ODYSSEY: I'm with you on that. It concerns me more from a safety standpoint than a legal one. Maybe I could make the mount in a way that the screen would flip out of the way in the event of an airbag inflation, but it seems like a LOT of work and I'd be unable to test it till it was too late! I know lots of guys have a switch to disable their airbags when they go off road (so it does not accidently inflate) but my situation would not be quite the same.

smoothswiss: That Datalux monitor looks really good. For once a monitor manufacture who has a good website with info on their product! I'll look into that one some more for sure. Ebay will become my best friend. Thanks for the tip! And I'm most excited about building the box for the computer. I wish I could say it was my idea, but the inspiration actually came from this (see attachment) I made a cardboard one last night and have been driving around with it today to see it it is livable. So far so good, you really can't even tell it is there! I love it. I agree with you on the fan idea, should be pretty simple to make it water resisitant. And the heatsink is something I've already thought of, I don't know much about them but I had that idea too. I'll underclock the CPU so I don't have to worry about heat from it, but the Sproggy.... Don't know how to heatsink that yet, still working on it. Heat sink plus this fan? http://voidedwarranty.netfirms.com/reviews/18/ We'll see...

tation: It may take a little padding before it is finished, just in case... NOticed your install the other day. Looks good and I was considering doing the same thing, but I'd have to take out a heck of a lot from my dash to fit something in. Vents and radio mostly, but I'd have to tear out a buch of metal I think, and then the dash wouldn't go back together if I didn't like the project in the end. Plus it makes it hard to replicate this install, I'd like to make something modular that anyone can install if possible. It would be cool if you could take this right out of one jeep and put it in another. Jeeps have been very similar (ok, mostly) since the 50's so I don't think this is too far-fetched. And cops/thieves are things I'm thinking about too. Still gotta figure some things out. I'll try to post pictures of what I'm talking about as I go along.

Rob · 03-28-2002, 03:20 PM

I don't know if these are of any use to you, and I'm not sure on the price. But it might be worth having a look. I've played with a couple of them and they are very nice, but probably expensive.

http://www.ab.com/industrialcomputers/icmonitors.html

wompser · 03-28-2002, 04:34 PM

Wow, I checked out those Datalux monitors, they seem like just the thing for me. Small form factor, pretty bright, rugged. They look just perfect if I can find one of the new ones that does not need that special controller card. If I could will someone into putting a touch screen one on ebay....

Adam F · 03-28-2002, 04:56 PM

The 10.4 datalux says its only 100 nits...is that enough to see in the daytime?

smoothswiss · 03-28-2002, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adam F
The 10.4 datalux says its only 100 nits...is that enough to see in the daytime?

woh, don't get that... it's either an error or a really old model. Mine is 200 nits (LMV10R2, resistive touch screen), and that is the most common. There is also a 500 nits model(LMV10RX), but that one is very difficult to find. The 200 is fine for a car, 500 is probably visible in direct sunlight. The 500 nits version were actually developed for use in police cars.

The displays currently on ebay are non-touch screen. The prices are expensive, cause I have seen non-touch screen versions sell for 120 dollars in nice condition. For a while, there were a whole lot of touch screen (LMV10R) models on ebay that would go for just a little over 200 dollars. They seem to come in waves, and usually it's the same reseller, so you'll just have to wait for them. I think a good price to buy a touch screen version (which is what I recommend getting since they are so sweet!) is from 250-300 dollars.

<b>HOWEVER...<b> as wompser said, be very carefull for the ones that require a special controller card... I would not get one of these, since they only work with a non-upgradeable ISA card

Check the website... they have lots of info: www.datalux.com

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