Hybrid sleep

kev000 · 10-15-2009, 08:28 PM

So I keep on hearing about some windows 7 proponents about this thing called "hybrid-sleep". I learned that it actually means hibernate+suspend. Apparently this has existed in Linux for several years now (kantlivelong has been using it for probably 3 years in his car). So, I came up with a new shutdown/quit screen for nGhost that will allow this option:

This will be pushed out to LinuxICE Beta2 users in an update and will be in RC1. Hibernate is broke in the beta's, until you add resume2=/dev/path/to/swap to your grub line. I've updated the iceinstall to do this for you, but that will only fix clean installs. At any rate, if you install beta2, make sure you update before running iceinstall so you'll be sure to get all the updates.

Have fun!

justchat_1 · 10-15-2009, 09:28 PM

Last time i saw the hibernate+suspend option on Linux it hibernated first and then went to standby (aka you watched it dump to disk first)....hopefully your talking about it done correctly?
Screen should be off within 1-2seconds, then the hib file is written, then transition to s3.

kev000 · 10-15-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by justchat_1

Last time i saw the hibernate+suspend option on Linux it hibernated first and then went to standby (aka you watched it dump to disk first)....hopefully your talking about it done correctly?
Screen should be off within 1-2seconds, then the hib file is written, then transition to s3.

well, it has to hibernate to disk before it goes into s3 standby, so what you are defining as "correctly" would be just the screen turning off as it's doing the hibernate? I guess Windows does this to give you warm fuzzies? Other than that, I really don't see the point...

But yes, you can configure it to drop to text mode, or display some fancy splash progress while it's doing that. When I play with it more, I'll look into the UI fancy stuff.

justchat_1 · 10-15-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by kev000

well, it has to hibernate to disk before it goes into s3 standby, so what you are defining as "correctly" would be just the screen turning off as it's doing the hibernate?

Yea its mainly an aesthetic thing (win7 has a nice fadeout)-text mode tends to screw up the whole OEM look of an install. For me its pretty important, when i open the car door i want my screen off immediately otherwise the car tends to attract "unwanted attention".

Punky · 10-15-2009, 10:28 PM

YAY! awesome addition to linuxice! just waiting for that nice gui, i've been hinting all these days. So many awesome skinner on this forum, hopefully someone will volunteer.

_Dejan_ · 10-16-2009, 01:14 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by kev000

well, it has to hibernate to disk before it goes into s3 standby, so what you are defining as "correctly" would be just the screen turning off as it's doing the hibernate? I guess Windows does this to give you warm fuzzies? Other than that, I really don't see the point...

In windows7 hibryd-sleep work this way:
1.)You press power button and fade off screen and then turn it off
2.)Start making hibernate file(screen is turned off) and when complete go to S3 sleep(FAN, HDD... turned off)

When you turn it on:
it turn on screen and fade to "working screen desktop" if you lose power when it has been in sleep it hibernate from HDD...

chunkyks · 10-16-2009, 01:24 AM

Ugh

I just ranted on IRC to trip about it, but I wanted to link this here: This reminds me of Joel Spolky's discussion of this exact topic.

You're presenting users with choices, and choices suck. I still don't know what half the options to turn off my Vista machine do. What the *hell* does hybrid-sleep even mean?

IMHO, a carputer system should:
1) turn on when car turns on
2) turn off when car turns off
the end.

If you really really really want a manual option, then that's what the huge button on the front is for. Make a decision on what it does, and commit to that decision. Don't let people choose, don't offer choices. It's a power button: make it do what people "expect".

Gary (-;

chunkyks · 10-16-2009, 01:28 AM

Also, after much experimentation, nowadays I just feel that it's infinitely more useful to make the system boot faster [which I know trip has been working on, with stellar results].

Instead of sleep/hibernate/sleep-and-hibernate/S3 blah/etc/etc, just turn the f**ker off. When you want the machine back, turn it back on. At least a couple of my machines take longer to hibernate or de-hibernate than they take to boot.

Just my .02
Gary (-;

chunkyks · 10-16-2009, 01:49 AM

Oh, and one more way of looking at it: nGhost is effectively *an appliance*.

My Wii doesn't ask me how it should sleep. Nor do any other consoles or my TV.
My Garmin GPS just has a power button. Either it's on or it's not.
*Everything* in my car exhibits similar decisions; I turn the car off and the radio remains on until it gets around to turning it off. Same with the headlamps [and my better half's Prius does the same thing].
Even my macbook pro has it straight; I close the lid, it goes to sleep, If the battery ever starts to run low, it hibernates. I get no choice in the matter, but on this topic I think Apple made a pretty good decision.

Gary (-;

PS Some of these appliances do let me choose "how long", but as to the "how", I get no say in the matter.

_Dejan_ · 10-16-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by chunkyks

Also, after much experimentation, nowadays I just feel that it's infinitely more useful to make the system boot faster [which I know trip has been working on, with stellar results].

Instead of sleep/hibernate/sleep-and-hibernate/S3 blah/etc/etc, just turn the f**ker off. When you want the machine back, turn it back on. At least a couple of my machines take longer to hibernate or de-hibernate than they take to boot.

Just my .02
Gary (-;

You are old fashion.
If you don't know benefit of hibryd sleep and you don't need it you don't need comment in this thread...
Main benefit of this feature is LOW power consumption (1-2W) when carpc is in sleep and you have 1-3sec. "boot" time, BUT if your batery voltage go to low and cut off power for carpc when you are not in car you still have 15-20sec "boot" time(resume from hibernate) and you still can start your car without drained battery...

kev000 · 10-16-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by _Dejan_

You are old fashion.
If you don't know benefit of hibryd sleep and you don't need it you don't need comment in this thread...
Main benefit of this feature is LOW power consumption (1-2W) when carpc is in sleep and you have 1-3sec. "boot" time, BUT if your batery voltage go to low and cut off power for carpc when you are not in car you still have 15-20sec "boot" time(resume from hibernate) and you still can start your car without drained battery...

I don't think he's arguing against having hybrid sleep, I think he's arguing the need for so many buttons/options for something that, he believes, the user shouldn't even have to think about.

Traditionally, LinuxICE's default behavior was to hibernate when it got the ACPI-power-off signal from hardware. This of course would fail if your hardware wouldn't support it. I think what I will do is create some sort of smart script that will try to

1) hybrid-sleep.

if (fail):
2) shutdown

This menu is meant as kinda a maintenance type thing when for whatever reason, you didn't want the default behavior (ie, restarting after upgrading nghost, etc, etc).

chunkyks · 10-16-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

If you don't know benefit of hibryd sleep and you don't need it you don't need comment in this thread...

I'm not calling the benefits of hybrid sleep into question, I'm pondering the usability of the screenshot posted to start this thread, and offering up my suggestions on how to fix what I see as wrong.

I guess I didn't make myself clear on two counts;
1) Hybrid-sleep is, in fact, an entirely opaque term to people who aren't computer experts. Even offering such a thing to users is bad karma. Most users won't know the difference between hybrid-sleep and hibernate, and they shouldn't need to
2) Read the joel article I linked - it clarifies that giving users *this exact choice* is bad for usability. Carputers should be trivially simple to use, for all the reasons this thread's original author outlined here

Quote:

15-20sec "boot" time

Thereby validating my stance, because linuxice already boots faster than that. Saving power is good: drawing absolutely zero is better.

I have a pretty beefy machine at home, and putting it to hibernate takes a really freaking long time because no matter which way you bend it, writing 4G of ram to disk and reading it back takes a long time.

Quote:

LOW power consumption (1-2W)

1-2W is still sucking a bunch of electricities, depending on your worldview. There's people concerned on another thread here about a device drawing one five-hundredth of that. My sheeva draws an almighty 5W when it's going full-tilt, and way way less when it's doing nothing.

But you are right in that I know very little about power saving.

Gary (-;

nasa · 10-16-2009, 01:47 PM

Gary,

While nothing you said is *incorrect* it has at it's core an assumption -- that is whom is this being developed for... If this is aimed for the typical "Joe" off the street, then I would agree with you stance. However, the typical "Joe" isn't even thinking about how he/she is going to run power to different devices in his car -- or wheather to use an Inverter vs a DC-DC adaptor -- or how to integrate his steering wheel controls with his computer -- or the list of other things that go into putting a computer into a car.

For those of us doing that, well at least for me, options are good. If the option I need for my particular configuration is already there, well that's one less thing I have to research and tweek for my particular configuration. I am sure any of us could go into /etc/acpi/ and configure linuxice to shutdown how we would like, but having the config option right there means I can spend more time on items that are more unique to my setup (like using a space navigator).

Just my 2 cents...

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