For those who tried the 1F tank!!! - Page 2

none · 01-07-2004, 11:44 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by shakes

i'm still waiting on the proof ... i've had enough of people saying "yeah man it works" ... do it ... and if it works post the details so we can close the books on this one.

OK keep asking for proof and then shout down those who offer it. Good plan.

I know it won't work for a POS PW60/70/120 whatever. I said so. You need to give up on that crap and get a decent PSU.

As I said before, come to my house and see my Sproggy 2.8+ survive cranks. A major difference between this revision and earlier ones (that didn't so easily survive cranks) are the bigger caps on the input. Do your math on that.

I agree that a 1F cap is ridiculous. Nothing even near that big is needed.

shakes · 01-08-2004, 12:21 AM

boy you just can't let things go can you? i thought we already solved this in another thread?? that was posted before you ever told me you had "proof"

as i said before, my statement has always been that capacitors alone cannot successfully be used as a tank circuit on their own. That cannot be refuted as caps discharge way too quickly to provide the power needed to last a crank.

In your setup ... and from what i've heard from others with opus ... you're able to survive a crank. but it's not only because of the caps! it's because of the opus/sproggy.

if I'm understanding you correctly ... you ahve a few caps (i think you said 2200uf) sitting in front of your sproggy circuit yes? if you remove those caps are you still able to survive a crank?

post a schematic of your setup if you can.

by all means add your input to this board but stop giving me crap about a point i'm not making. all ricky and I are saying is that capacitors alone cannot provide enough juice to provide 2-4v @ approx 5a (to compensate for the starter's draw on the battery) through a crank ... will you argue against that???

Quote: Originally Posted by none

OK keep asking for proof and then shout down those who offer it. Good plan.

I know it won't work for a POS PW60/70/120 whatever. I said so. You need to give up on that crap and get a decent PSU.

As I said before, come to my house and see my Sproggy 2.8+ survive cranks. A major difference between this revision and earlier ones (that didn't so easily survive cranks) are the bigger caps on the input. Do your math on that.

I agree that a 1F cap is ridiculous. Nothing even near that big is needed.

none · 01-08-2004, 12:33 AM

I've never disagreed with that - only with any notion that such drastic measures are necessary. You've just ****ed me off by shouting NO too often without even reading the relevant posts (as you've admitted.) Your statements have not always been so constrained as this one, they are far more often blanket dismissals and talk of "putting all talk of cap tank circuits to bed." Those are the comments I mean to respond to, sorry for having a job and having to hurry my aim.

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 12:34 AM

all ricky and I are saying is that capacitors alone cannot provide enough juice to provide 2-4v @ approx 5a (to compensate for the starter's draw on the battery) through a crank ... will you argue against that???

I agree

The original circuit design was supposed to survive the crank even if the PSU is badly designed or not. Im sure that was the main intention was.

None,

If you look at sproggys design the +12V supply is derived from the +5V by means of a step up regulator. In theory even if the starter motor drain as much as 6V or so the circuit should survive a crank because the +5V is never effected and therefore the +12V wont get effected either.

I dont know the exact operating voltage of the sproggy but you can see it will survive the crank with or without the tank circuit.

Using the 1F tank circuit on any power supply simply wont do anything at all.

none · 01-08-2004, 12:38 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Ricky327

If you look at sproggys design the +12V supply is derived from the +5V by means of a step up regulator. In theory even if the starter motor drain as much as 6V or so the circuit should survive a crank because the +5V is never effected and therefore the +12V wont get effected either.

As EPIA motherboards don't use the 12v rail, a crash here won't cause a "tank." It is all about the 5v, and thus, amperage available. As such it is all about efficiency of that 5v regulator, not about minimum voltage.

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 12:42 AM

How can the +5V get effected when the supply voltage is still well over 5V during crank?

I can bet you that even a +3.3V and +5V linear regulator will survive a crank as long as you supply the minimum required voltage into it.

Look at the datasheet it will show you

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 12:51 AM

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/power-supplies/20433-power-suplie-12v-dc-250wats-9v-dc-18v-dc.html

From post #9

PTCruiser >>> Vin range... Note that in car Vin can be 8...16V (> you'll have reboot)

And yes PTCruiser is one of the most knowledgeable member in here.

none · 01-08-2004, 01:05 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Ricky327

How can the +5V get effected when the supply voltage is still well over 5V during crank?
)

If the input amperage the (inefficient) regulator needs is not available.

But whatever you guys wanna do, have fun. I feel that I've gotten some valuable tips from those that have come before me on this board (and who are all long gone and not able to offer the prized "proof" at this time - by the way must this "proof" be notarized?) I now have a well functioning system, working far better than I could have dreamed of before I found this place, and I have no further need for this forum. I doubt I will be back much, but I am thankful for those who came before.

Thanks to Aaron Cake, Sproggy, Jeff Mucha, Mastero, and many more who I cannot remember.

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 01:21 AM

If the input amperage the (inefficient) regulator needs is not available.

Of course you have more than enough current. A starter motor is easily rated at 1KW, we are talking about 72A drain here. Your little car PC is rated at what 150W the most.

If your car battery dont have enough current to power the inefficient +5V regulator your starter motor wont even move. How is it able to survive a crank if your battery is dead???

Now tell me how inefficient an inefficient +5V regulator are when the main battery cant even supply enough current to power it as you said? And yet the main battery can still supply 1KW to the starter motor.

Anymore 1F capacitor suporter? please come forward

none · 01-08-2004, 01:31 AM

Umm, we're talking about while cranking here, with the starter sucking up the available amperage. What are you talking about?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ricky327

If the input amperage the (inefficient) regulator needs is not available.

Of course you have more than enough current. A starter motor is easily rated at 1KW, we are talking about 72A drain here. Your little car PC is rated at what 150W the most.

If your car battery dont have enough current to power the inefficient +5V regulator your starter motor wont even move. How is it able to survive a crank if your battery is dead???

Now tell me how inefficient an inefficient +5V regulator are when the main battery cant even supply enough current to power it as you said? And yet the main battery can still supply 1KW to the starter motor.

Anymore 1F capacitor suporter? please come forward

none · 01-08-2004, 01:33 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Ricky327

Anymore 1F capacitor suporter? please come forward

That's it, ignore everything I've said and just have fun. Par for the course.

I've already explained that the 1F tank was never a suggestion by anyone knowledgable - it was a response from a newbie to a blanket dismissal of ALL cap based solutions to rebooting problems from a recently joining member who hadn't TRIED anything, or even ever heard of a Sproggy.

As such I find your obsession with it puzzling.

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 01:49 AM

Umm, we're talking about while cranking here, with the starter sucking up the available amperage. What are you talking about?

Sure the starter drain so much current as I said it can easily be 72A or so. Thats why your battery voltage drop down to as low as 8V. But from what you are saying theres no more current left during cranking for the little inefficient +5V to operate at all and cause the PC to reboot. You are trying to imply that the other PSU are so inefficient that the battery cant even provide enough current to power it during cranking. Im asking you how inefficient is it? surely its not draining another 1KW out of your battery just to run your 150W max PC?

That's it, ignore everything I've said and just have fun. Par for the course.

No one is ignoring you, one person claiming it to be a working theory just isnt good enough. Pehaps you missed something, same as for me and other poeple who are opposite to what you say. A little debate is good

Aaron, jeff, mastero are still around...please come forward and explain

starfox · 01-08-2004, 02:08 AM

ricky: you need caps when starting you car. your alternator drains a lot of current, and also makes the current shoot up and down because it's a motor. the current and voltage aren't nearly constant, and you need caps to smooth this out.

If you have a crappy supply voltage and current, you'll stress your components in your PSU. This *might* cause the PSU to start producing out of spec voltages and currents (eg. it might drop out intermittantly), and cause the PC to reboot / shut down.

If you have a second battery, the second battery also acts as capacitor and keeps the voltage and current more stable while you're cranking.

ripple and noise are bad for switchmode power supplies...

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 02:13 AM

ricky: you need caps when starting you car. your alternator drains a lot of current, and also makes the current shoot up and down because it's a motor. the current and voltage aren't nearly constant, and you need caps to smooth this out.

Yes, we know that and I agree.

The original post was about surviving a crank, A 1F cap simply wont hold the voltage at 12V for more than 3sec at 5A drain. From what I calculated its only good for less than half a second.

Ricky327 · 01-08-2004, 02:22 AM

If you have a second battery, the second battery also acts as capacitor and keeps the voltage and current more stable while you're cranking.

Yes, again I agree, the big diffence is the battery can hold longer and have a flatter discharge rate while the capacitor discharge in an exponential way.

As I said...the original thread was to end the 1F vs battery tank circuit discussion. Seems many newbies go and ask time and time again if this 1F can survive the crank and no one gives any explanation why it will work, how it work. They then buy the 1F capacitor thinking that it will work for them, 1F is not exactly cheap.

The idea of this thread was to point the newbie to this thread and let them decide what will work for them.