Inverter not booting pc after second try

ChrisC · 11-08-2004, 10:20 AM

Hi
I have looked on the forum for post on a similar subject but cant find any. Lets see if anybody has come across this before.

Whats is going on:
I boot the PC using the inverter, it works fine.
I turn off the pc at a filling station etc.
I start the engine.
I try to boot the pc.
The PC power light flashes as if its trying to boot.

To get the PC to boot again I have to either:
Turn off the car and boot the pc without engine running
Wait about 15-30 minutes of driving before trying the PC again.

I though it could be left over charge in the Caps of the inverter but I dont see how it could be if it works without the engine running.

Any ideas anybody?

Any help apreciated
Thanks in advance

falconey · 11-08-2004, 10:53 AM

Ok a few things you should probably provide to get better answers. What type of setup are you running? I.E.(How do you have the inverter wired, what type of perifials do you have connected to the motherboard. etc) Also where is the inverter and are you shutting it off when you stop wherever you're stopping?

Sonicxtacy02 · 11-08-2004, 10:57 AM

Very seldomly i have this issue. My inverter is hard wired to the battery. Turning it off for 10 secs then trying again solves it.

breimann · 11-08-2004, 11:07 AM

could be over voltage -

how new is your car battery?

ChrisC · 11-08-2004, 11:22 AM

Ok what the setup is as follows:

The inverter is wired to a relay which is controlled by the remote turn on of the head unit. The inverter has its power button on all the time. Also worth mentioning is that it is a soft start inverter. The inverter is connected directly to the positive terminal from the relay and the ground of the inverter is connected to the electric anttenna ground and so is the inverter case ground. The pc case is grounded also to this point.

Also when using a diffent brand inverter direct using croc clips on the battery with no inverter case ground it worked fine. (not sure if this is relevant)

Normal pc setup really with gps and screen thats it.
Battery is just over a year old. I though it also could be over voltage so while running the engine I used a meter and it says 13.8 v at the inverter terminals 12.3 when engine off.

Any more info you think you will need?
Thanks

falconey · 11-08-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisC

Ok what the setup is as follows:

The inverter is wired to a relay which is controlled by the remote turn on of the head unit. The inverter has its power button on all the time. Also worth mentioning is that it is a soft start inverter. The inverter is connected directly to the positive terminal from the relay and the ground of the inverter is connected to the electric anttenna ground and so is the inverter case ground. The pc case is grounded also to this point.

Also when using a diffent brand inverter direct using croc clips on the battery with no inverter case ground it worked fine. (not sure if this is relevant)

Normal pc setup really with gps and screen thats it.
Battery is just over a year old. I though it also could be over voltage so while running the engine I used a meter and it says 13.8 v at the inverter terminals 12.3 when engine off.

Any more info you think you will need?
Thanks

Including your first post that should be enough info. From what I see if everything is wired properly you shouldn't be having problems. That said three things pop out at me that could be potential problems. Remote turn on, grounds, and relay. When you used the other inverter with the clips you really didn't rule out any of these because you didn't use any of these. It's most likely something to do with the relay though. What are you using to trigger the relay?

ChrisC · 11-08-2004, 12:38 PM

I am using a 12volt stable from the head unit, this can supply the standard 0.3 amps and the relay needs 0.1 amps to switch. The relay can be heard switching and the inverter can be heard buzzing. What are your thoughts on how the realy could be affecting postive voltage to cause this? Shame I dont have a scope to see the voltage trace at the inverter terminals.

falconey · 11-08-2004, 12:56 PM

You're set up is very similar to mine. Here's mine. I have a + coming from the battery to pin 87 on the relay. I have pin 85 on the relay grounded. I have pin 30 going direct to the inverter. I have +12 coming from head unit with diode inline going to pin 8 on comport for shutdown feature and I split this same line to go to pin 86 on the relay for the start up feature. I have another +12 going to pin 86 coming from my psu with diode inline for shutdown feature. Dunno why I posted that, but I guess that shows you that you're relay shouldn't be causing voltage problems if wired properly. The difference between your setup and mine is that I have my pc set to power on when it sees power so I don't have to hit a switch.

The issue with your pc is now even more interesting. So you say when the inverter starts up, you're seeing 13.8V at the inverter and yet the pc will just flash on for a second and then not turn on? Even worse you say that sometimes you have to wait 10-15 minutes b4 it will boot. So if you try to boot up within that time span it will only do that flash thing and then ?????

Now if your wiring is correct then I don't know what the heck to say. As mentioned b4 high voltage seems like a possbility although it just doesn't seem like that would be the case(does your inverter having warning beeps/lights).

Also as previously mentioned you could try turning the inverter off and on. Have you tried this?

Another test you could run is switching out the two inverters you have. I mean a complete swap. If the new inverter gives no issues under the same set up as the old then the issue would have to be the inverter.

ChrisC · 11-08-2004, 01:32 PM

What happens when I turn on the relay to power up the inverter i can see the power led on the xenarc flashing (the xenarc is wired into the atx power supply). This is before I even try to boot it. If I press the power button I get nothing apart from a brightier flash. Its as if it spiking the voltage or interferance.

I dont think that trying to get it to boot extends the time I have to wait before it will however.
No warning beeps or fault signal, it keeps buzzing also which is somthing that would stop when safety cut out is in effect.
I have tried turning off the inverted when +12 is connected and also with the relay off. I though it could be somthing to do with the caps being grounded or sothing like that when the button is turned off , but this doesnt help.

I have a couple of the same inverters I will try those and see if it makes any diference.

You dont think that it could be interference on the power switch leads do you? I have some ferite noise reducers I could use one if you think it would help.

I didnt quite follow how you go the pc to shutdown and startup? I am intrested in how you set this up.

falconey · 11-08-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisC

What happens when I turn on the relay to power up the inverter i can see the power led on the xenarc flashing (the xenarc is wired into the atx power supply). This is before I even try to boot it. If I press the power button I get nothing apart from a brightier flash. Its as if it spiking the voltage or interferance.

I dont think that trying to get it to boot extends the time I have to wait before it will however.
No warning beeps or fault signal, it keeps buzzing also which is somthing that would stop when safety cut out is in effect.
I have tried turning off the inverted when +12 is connected and also with the relay off. I though it could be somthing to do with the caps being grounded or sothing like that when the button is turned off , but this doesnt help.

I have a couple of the same inverters I will try those and see if it makes any diference.

You dont think that it could be interference on the power switch leads do you? I have some ferite noise reducers I could use one if you think it would help.

I didnt quite follow how you go the pc to shutdown and startup? I am intrested in how you set this up.

One other thing you could try is connecting something else to the inverter. Something that requires about the same power as the pc, although swapping inverters should narrow your problems down to either the inverter being the problem or if the same thing happens with a diff inverter then it's wiring(wires, relay) or the psu.

How my setup starts up. First you have to set your pc to boot when it sees power. Wire up your relay up the way I've described above(let me know if you need more detail on that). If wired correctly and set to boot on power then whenever you turn the key to the on position the remote turn on from your radio will trigger the relay, which will turn on the inverter(if the switch is in the on position) and then pc will start. Well w/o a change or addition the relay would just switch off if you turn the key to the off position. That's why I send the +12v from the power supply of the pc to pin 86. This way as long as the pc is on the trigger for the relay stays switched on.

Now for the shutdown you must run +5v(I use 12, but you need at least +5) to pin 8 on whichever comport you choose. There's someone on here that designed software to control shutdown, but the XP one works fine for me. You can go into power options in XP and set up a UPS. This function will then check pin 8 comport ? every few seconds to see if it is receiving +5v. When it isn't receiving it is when it will initiate shut down. I have mine set up to hibernate. So I turn key off and the +12v coming from head unit to pin 8 is no more. XP's UPS software sees this, begins hibernation, shuts down pc, psu relay trigger is no more, relay shuts down, inverter shuts down.

There are variations for the shutdown feature, but this was the simplest for me. You can search under the terms inverter, shutdown, auto and you should be able to get some info on the other options.

IntellaWorks · 11-08-2004, 02:07 PM

I've had this problem, here's the anwser:

Your inverter probably isn't a sine wave inverter or if it is, its not really a good quality inverter. An inverter does this to power:

Sine Wave, simply makes AC power look like DC power by rounding out DC edges. If you check out sine wave converters they will have a percentage on the box or specs. Typically thier 80-85% this means that each "wave" falls between 80-85% close to a real AC wave.

Computer components need very good power, because what your power supply actually does is reverse what your DC/AC converter just did and turn the rounded edges into flat edges. The result of turning AC back to DC, With bad AC results in an unrecognizable power type to your power supply thus not turning your PC on.

Your Power Converter tries to give your PC power a good supply of AC waves and it can do this when its cold, it can give your pc something to work with when it hasnt been used for a few hours... but while your driving your stressing the equiptment heating it up. When you stop and go at a gas station your inverter hasnt had enough time to re-coup itself resulting in bad AC waves to your pc powersupply. Typically a 10-15 minute wait will give your converter enough time to cool off.

A remedy to this solution is here:

Buy a TRUE SINE WAVE CONVERTER, these inverters are built specifically for computer components, thier output is 90-95% true to AC waves. You will never have a problem starting your pc after short stops..

Hope this helps.

falconey · 11-08-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by IntellaWorks

I've had this problem, here's the anwser:

Your inverter probably isn't a sine wave inverter or if it is, its not really a good quality inverter. An inverter does this to power:

Sine Wave, simply makes AC power look like DC power by rounding out DC edges. If you check out sine wave converters they will have a percentage on the box or specs. Typically thier 80-85% this means that each "wave" falls between 80-85% close to a real AC wave.

Computer components need very good power, because what your power supply actually does is reverse what your DC/AC converter just did and turn the rounded edges into flat edges. The result of turning AC back to DC, With bad AC results in an unrecognizable power type to your power supply thus not turning your PC on.

Your Power Converter tries to give your PC power a good supply of AC waves and it can do this when its cold, it can give your pc something to work with when it hasnt been used for a few hours... but while your driving your stressing the equiptment heating it up. When you stop and go at a gas station your inverter hasnt had enough time to re-coup itself resulting in bad AC waves to your pc powersupply. Typically a 10-15 minute wait will give your converter enough time to cool off.

A remedy to this solution is here:

Buy a TRUE SINE WAVE CONVERTER, these inverters are built specifically for computer components, thier output is 90-95% true to AC waves. You will never have a problem starting your pc after short stops..

Hope this helps.

Sounds good, but I use a Vector P.O.S. from Wallyworld and I'm sure that's about as cheap as you can get. Dunno though, what you've presented is logical just doesn't seem to be accross the board.

IntellaWorks · 11-08-2004, 03:04 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by falconey

Sounds good, but I use a Vector P.O.S. from Wallyworld and I'm sure that's about as cheap as you can get. Dunno though, what you've presented is logical just doesn't seem to be accross the board.

Well, beleive me or not but its the solution to most of your power problems.

ChrisC · 11-08-2004, 03:28 PM

This is not really true when you look at the input stage of most PSUs as the AC is reftified and then capcitace smoothed and if you look at the damping ratio value of the capacitor in the input stage it will cause the ouput DC signal to be well within the limits of variance on the ouput side. As we are not intrested in the inputs to the atx supply but the output, especially on the grey "always on" wire that powers the chip on the motherboard that controls the startup.

What you say about heat also doesnt hold as this will happen after 30 seconds of usage or 10 hours. I initially also though it was this also, but after testing it out I descovered that it was fine.

You are completely correct that most equipment would like pure sine waves rather than modified however this only really applied to things that are driven off AC directly. For example if I used an AC motor on the modified sine wave it would not work at all correctly. The fact that most AC to DC converted are rectifier and capacitace smoothed means that you can use modifed sine wave inverters perfectly.

I have also tested, using a multimeter, the frequency and peak to peak (also RMS) voltage of the output AC signal and it is spot on. Though this is without any ouput load so it could have changed once load was applied.

I also stated that I used another inverter and it worked fine, so it couldnt be the ATX power supply tolerance since the inverter I have at the moment is actually better, tolerance wise.

Thanks for all your suggestions however. Based on what I have said above do you have any other ideas?

falconey · 11-08-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by IntellaWorks

Well, beleive me or not but its the solution to most of your power problems.

It's not a question of believing you or not and it's not my problem. That's why I didn't understand. I have a cheapo inverter and don't have the issue you explained. That's all I was saying. It doesn't rule it out for Chris, but my thoughts were more along the lines of why my cheapo inverter and the many other inverter users don't have this problem, but he does.

User Name		Remember Me?
Password