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Old 08-16-2004, 11:47 AM   #76
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Quote: Originally Posted by cenwesi
Its all about money and as long as there is NO profit in Linux, it will NEVER succeed unless MS does something very stupid.

I think you are showing a bit of ignorance in your statement. Just because something does not make a profit does not mean that it is inferior. For instance, did you know that in June 2004, Apache (an open source web server) had 67.22% of the web-server market compared to Microsoft's 21.35% share?

In the enterprise world, Linux is succeeding quite well due to ease of administration, stability, and cheaper licensing costs:

http://www.entmag.com/news/article.a...torialsID=6250
http://www.newsforge.com/business/03...12.shtml?tid=3
http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html

Granted, it still has a ways to go before it reaches Windows XP's easy-of-use as a desktop OS...
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Old 08-16-2004, 01:07 PM   #77
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Old 08-16-2004, 01:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
Just because something does not make a profit does not mean that it is inferior.

He’s describing the inferiority of such a product as an effect, not a cause.

Quote:
For instance, did you know that in June 2004, Apache (an open source web server) had 67.22% of the web-server market compared to Microsoft's 21.35% share?

I’ve setup neither server, but I can presume several things:

1) Microsoft’s product is far easier to configure and comes with tech support.
2) Companies that use Apache will pay the difference in more experienced technicians.
3) Apache is still a greater value.
4) Microsoft’s failure in the web-server market is due to some other massive flaw in their product or model.

Which brings us to the conclusion that a huge potential exists in this market and that, in not much time, some company will step up to fill that potential.
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Old 08-16-2004, 02:10 PM   #79
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Lol... i will let eatyummypuppies to go on. He definitely missed my point and i don't want to go back arguing again. Unless MS messes up then *nix will win. Don't see that happening anytime soon. Yes *nix has it advantage/disadvantage. But do you REALLY think you average joe user can figure it out like they would with windows?
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Old 08-16-2004, 02:39 PM   #80
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Quote: Originally Posted by cenwesi
Lol... i will let eatyummypuppies to go on. He definitely missed my point and i don't want to go back arguing again. Unless MS messes up then *nix will win. Don't see that happening anytime soon. Yes *nix has it advantage/disadvantage. But do you REALLY think you average joe user can figure it out like they would with windows?

Consider this then: how many folks take to Apple's OS very well? How many people actually know they are using a Unix system? The thing is, as long as Linux remains a hobbyist's OS, there will never be enough standardization for users to be able to glom onto it. Think about it. Why is IE the most-used browser out there? Because it's better supported? No. Because it comes with Windows, and people don't have to worry about downloading, installing, and configuring it. Sure, I snagged Firefox to eliminate to holes, but Joe Average doesn't care about those sorts of things. Why do you think the worm problem is so huge? People are sheep.

As for Linux taking over in general, well the US Navy has been ordered to have all of their nuclear ships' OSes converted to Linux by 2005. Apparently somebody over there figured out that Windows is a security risk, and who the hell wants to reboot a ship powered by nuclear fission anyhow?!?!

Unless a bunch of folks get together, decide on some standards for Linux as an OS, and implement them as a package (with OPTIONS to configure), then it won't overtake Windows. Even if MS were to screw up big-time, which I firmly believe they will with the coming Longhorn release, Linux won't win the day. OSX will.
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Old 09-25-2004, 07:41 PM   #81
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Quote: Originally Posted by deadweasel
...Even if MS were to screw up big-time, which I firmly believe they will with the coming Longhorn release, Linux won't win the day. OSX will.

Why OSX? I think it will be like when they released windows ME. Everyone bought it, used it, and hated it. So, they reverted to windows 98, not a non-ms os. So why will OSX win?? I figure when longhorn comes out and it flops, people will just go back to XP while MS regoups.
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Old 09-25-2004, 11:45 PM   #82
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Quote: Originally Posted by Tidder
Why OSX? I think it will be like when they released windows ME. Everyone bought it, used it, and hated it. So, they reverted to windows 98, not a non-ms os. So why will OSX win?? I figure when longhorn comes out and it flops, people will just go back to XP while MS regoups.

MS has supposedly been "regrouping" for the last decade! Windows XP was everything they promised it to be, after learning some hard lessons from ME. Here's the problem now, however:
MS has been working on Longhorn for the last few years. Contrary to their statements on this issue, they have NOT changed their development methodology since all of the mess with XP (IE constant security flaws etc). Even Server 2k3, which admittedly is a rock-solid product, is far from secure. People will snag it because of ease of install, but now MS has a big black eye over their sneaky ad campaign, where they attempted to fleece people into thinking that it's far more expensive to run a Linux/Unix server than to run an MS-based one.

Back to the OSX thing. People have gotten more intelligent since XP's release. Those that use/maintain/repair computers on a regular basis are, for the most part, tracking the progress of Longhorn. MS users began noticing all the noise the Apple users were making about stability and ease of use, and started wondering how they could get usability like that with their PCs. Microsoft heard the grumblings, and started making announcements about the new features of the coming Longhorn. Some of them included:

1) Unix-style commandline authorization structure, which would let the user control every aspect of the OS from the commandline.

2) A true journaling filesystem (such as Apple and Linux use) that would allow the OS to operate for longer periods without fragmentation issues, and allow the user to search for things much faster, since the search is based off a database, and not by checking all of the files on the drive one-by-one. This type of filesystem also provides the ability to resume file transfer operations after an unexpected crash.

3) Support for much larger hard drive capacities. With the coming HVD terabyte optical disk technology, this would be very important.

Now, let's look at what MS has said about its coming product thus far:

- Announces Longhorn will be the last Windows product. Ever. MS said they planned to create a universal standard OS that would be around long enough and be flexible enough to support foreseeable technological advances.
- Announces a pushback of the release date by a few years to 2008.
- Pulls Unix commandline support from the Longhorn core
- Announces earlier release date, to be released in 2006
- Cripples MSFS (The aforementioned journaling filesystem) so that it will be phased in over multiple service-pack releases. (MS said officially that this was to prevent a huge problem for users attempting to use their old software on the new filesystem, completely ignoring the fact that the filesystem would have no bearing on grandpa's ability to play that copy of Hoyle Solitaire written in 1992.)
- Announces earlier release date, to be released in 2005
- Announces intentions for future completely separate versions of Windows beyond Longhorn, and rolls back Longhorn release date to sometime in 2007
- Pulls MSFS support completely out of Longhorn, with no intentions of ever implementing it in Longhorn at all.

Wow. They just can't seem to get their act together, and despite the issues that are arising from the way they are developing their code, they have not changed the way they do it. They use hundreds of people, in dozens of teams, none of which are allowed to communicate with each other to convey conflict and runtime issues. Each team has to find a way to hack around the issues the previous team missed or inadvertently created. MS simply needs to re-write an OS completely from scratch with the lessons they have learned from Windows thus far, but instead Longhorn is going to be nothing more than a hugely bloated version of XP.

Through all of this, Apple has been releasing patched editions of OSX here and there, but nowhere near the scale of MS' hotfixes and security patches. Through all of this, OSX has maintained a solid, easy to use interface. Through all of this, Apple has not made any pretentious claims as to what their software was for or what it could do.

To break all of this down simply: Apple/Unix/Linux is for people who are professional users, or who are simply fed up with the MS issues. MS is for people that are either too immersed in Windows and compatible software to deal with anything else, too lazy or scared to try anything new, or too stupid to even wonder if there was anything other than Windows out there. I get quite a few of those types in my store, who think the computer is called a "Microsoft". However, there are less and less of these people making an appearance. By Longhorn's release, many more people will be fed up with the way MS is doing things, and will take the initiative to try something else, and discover Apple waiting there to give them what they're looking for.

It took 10 years for the letters "VCR" to become a household acronym, and "DVD" only became household a couple years ago. Computers are so diverse and complex, that the concept of what makes them tick is just now starting to bleed into general society. Gone are the days when us nerds were percieved as destined to rule the world. Our brand of magic has been revealed to be the really flashy science that it actually is. It's my firm belief that by the time Longhorn comes out, people will be either so dizzy with MS' constant waffling or so fed up with Windows issues, that they will run to Apple. Why apple? Because at present, Unix isn't designed for desktops, and Linux is going in too many crazy directions to be used as a common desktop environment. Among all the OSes available, only Apple has remained steady, and with the advent of OSX and its future versions, has become the most stable user-friendly environment out there. In terms of stability, Windows comes in a sharp fourth among the major players, and almost everyone of importance in the field already knows it.

*runs off to soak fingers in hot water*
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Old 09-26-2004, 01:36 AM   #83
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Quote: Originally Posted by deadweasel
*runs off to soak fingers in hot water*

LOL, reminds me of that new T-mobile comercial offering unlimited text and instant messaging for $9.99/month.

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Old 09-26-2004, 06:28 PM   #84
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@deadweasel:

I own a computer store here, and I agree, people are scared, lazy, and/or don't even realize there are alternatives to MS products. And it's that that makes me think OSX won't make it. It's not for the general MS-user. You take someone that doesn't know a damn thing about computers, yeah, they'll learn OSX no problems, cause they have nothing to go by. You take an unsavvy MS user, good luck. "But it worked like this in windows!" "What the hell are all these buttons?" "What is this damn smiley face?!"

Quote: Originally Posted by deadweasel
Now, let's look at what MS has said about its coming product thus far:

- Announces Longhorn will be the last Windows product. Ever. MS said they planned to create a universal standard OS that would be around long enough and be flexible enough to support foreseeable technological advances.

Bill also said 640k of memory is enough for anybody...
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