Small and simple USB audio amp anyone?

JC-S60 · 09-19-2007, 11:11 AM

This is a poll to gauge interest in a simple and small car amplifier (4x40w, like used in a head unit).

The idea is simple:

- Audio input over USB (amp will be recognized as USB speakers in any OS - MAC, Windows, Linux, ...)

- Powered by the car's 12v (power regulator on board)

- Amp on/off controlled by 5v of USB (pc on = amp on, maybe with delay)

- Output for 2 to 4 speakers

Let me know your interest and/or ideas!

Joachim

swift_gti · 09-19-2007, 11:39 AM

Sounds like a very interesting idea!

What sort of time scale are you looking at for testing this amp ?
Will it be kit form or pre-assembled ?

JC-S60 · 09-19-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by swift_gti

Sounds like a very interesting idea!

What sort of time scale are you looking at for testing this amp ?
Will it be kit form or pre-assembled ?

It would come assembled and tested.
Available in about 2-3 months should be possible I guess...

Thanks,
Joachim

RedGTiVR6 · 09-19-2007, 11:48 AM

sounds very promising to say the least!

While I would wish for high end audio, I think even a quality piece would be very popular and highly saught after. Just take a look at the 5.1 amps with optical in thread...lots of people looking for options that mean no processor necessary or line driver, etc.

JC-S60 · 09-19-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by RedGTiVR6

sounds very promising to say the least!

While I would wish for high end audio, I think even a quality piece would be very popular and highly saught after. Just take a look at the 5.1 amps with optical in thread...lots of people looking for options that mean no processor necessary or line driver, etc.

Thanks for the input!

It would be just stereo (front and back) though, no 5.1...

Sound quality would be good, comparable to any normal HU. Nothing competition level though, as that would drive the price up too much.

Joachim

BiG K · 09-19-2007, 02:42 PM

I don't mean to knock your idea, I would most probably get one myself, but if it only has 4 channel output, would it not be easier and probably to just get a 4 channel amp and a USB external soundcard??

I just got an external Creative USB soundcard for $20 delivered, a four channel amp is probably $60-120 depending on type and power.

Chris31 · 09-19-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BiG K

I don't mean to knock your idea, I would most probably get one myself, but if it only has 4 channel output, would it not be easier and probably to just get a 4 channel amp and a USB external soundcard??

I just got an external Creative USB soundcard for $20 delivered, a four channel amp is probably $60-120 depending on type and power.

You also get good driver support for branded sound card like creative labs. There are plenty of good amps ready built or in kit form that can just be added in.

JC-S60 · 09-20-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by BiG K

I don't mean to knock your idea, I would most probably get one myself, but if it only has 4 channel output, would it not be easier and probably to just get a 4 channel amp and a USB external soundcard??

I just got an external Creative USB soundcard for $20 delivered, a four channel amp is probably $60-120 depending on type and power.

That would work too, certainly... BUT

- It would be bigger

- It would be more cabling

- It would be more expensive most of the time

- It would be more complicated driver-wise in most of the cases (There are many known problems with soundcards going 100% volume after resume or needing a program to run in the background for all channels to work)

This amp WON'T NEED A SPECIFIC DRIVER, it's recognized by most OS'es (Win, Linux, Mac) as standard USB speakers using the OS built-in drivers

Just to give the info

Joachim

BiG K · 09-20-2007, 08:06 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by JC-S60

That would work too, certainly... BUT

- It would be bigger

- It would be more cabling

- It would be more expensive most of the time

- It would be more complicated driver-wise in most of the cases (There are many known problems with soundcards going 100% volume after resume or needing a program to run in the background for all channels to work)

This amp WON'T NEED A SPECIFIC DRIVER, it's recognized by most OS'es (Win, Linux, Mac) as standard USB speakers using the OS built-in drivers

Just to give the info

Joachim

Don't get me wrong mate, I absolute love people who hack and crack stuff to create something more useful.

After resume etc, A decent soundcard such as Creative will behave as you expect it to. There is a program required to run in the background for all channels to work, but this is also VERY simple to set up, there's actually a wizard that guides you through it. This program doesn't actually need alot of resources, just a few megabytes of RAM. As the sound is going through to an external soundcard which processes it, the overhead on the CPU is much lower, typically leaving the CPU to deal with other more important issues than playing back sound. An important issue when you only have around 1Ghz of power!!
It would require more cabling, but only approx 2 more cables depending on soundcard and amplifier chosen. You would need 2x 3.5 stereo jack to phono. These can be had for $2 each.

I would suggest drawing a standard plan and factor in the cost of components, solder and the board itself plus labour.

That's the thing though, with USB Speakers, its true that it takes away all the hissing and crackling, but that can be all removed by using a decent soundcard. On my home computer I have a Creative Audigy 2 ZS with some Creative S750's. I hear absolutely NO hissing/crackling/interference and even having a conversation on a mobile phone next to the speakers or amps, there is absolutely no inteference whatsoever and the clarity is absolutely superb, granting that the Audigy 2 ZS is atleast 5 years old!

Most of the people on MP3CAR want decent sound, think about it, MP3-CAR?? You can now pick up a small 4 channel Class D amplifier the size of a dvd drive for quite cheap, you are pretty much competing against them. Differentiate your product from the rest. Is it difficult to add on another channel (centre) and maybe put a subwoofer pass through? This would make it in a class of its own, having a 5.1 channel amp and soundcard.

If not, one option I would like to see, which I have not seen anywhere else, is if the USB amp used a ISO harness connector to hook upto the cars speakers. Just look at all the users who have the sound passed through a seperate head unit.

Think about it, a standard CD player, all connects at a single point.
When you get a standalone amp, you have to re-wire all your speakers, if you can create a small amplifier that can fit into a dash, that doesn't require you to splice/solder/cut wires, that would be a HUGE bonus, as I don't believe there are any other amps like this anywhere else.

JC-S60 · 09-20-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by BiG K

If not, one option I would like to see, which I have not seen anywhere else, is if the USB amp used a ISO harness connector to hook upto the cars speakers. Just look at all the users who have the sound passed through a seperate head unit.

Think about it, a standard CD player, all connects at a single point.
When you get a standalone amp, you have to re-wire all your speakers, if you can create a small amplifier that can fit into a dash, that doesn't require you to splice/solder/cut wires, that would be a HUGE bonus, as I don't believe there are any other amps like this anywhere else.

That's the main goal of this project: a simple drop-in replacement for a HU. It would come with an ISO harnass so you just plug in USB on one side and the harness on the other - done!

Maybe a line-out to connect to a SUB-amp would be possible, depends on the price of components, but anything else would be complicating things and making it more expensive.

This product is aimed at anyone concentrating on the PC part of their setup, but still want decent sound.

Outside the carpc community, most people don't run amps and subs, only a simple HU. We want to offer the same simplicity and basic quality to anyone wanting to put a PC in their car, without wanting to do a major upgrade to their car's sound system. All that at a decent price.

The key here is simplicity. As we're also developping a complete carpc solution, I can tell you we've tested multiple external soundcards, and while they all produce very good sound, we encountered some problems too: external power needed, problems with upmixing stereo sound, high CPU usage (indeed - because of badly written drivers), USB-cable length and/or bandwidth issues (a lot of them require USB 2.0 to function right - our solution would be USB 1.1).

Thanks for you input!
Joachim

canadian_psyko · 09-20-2007, 01:20 PM

This sounds like something I would be very interested in. It'd be a great way to get up and running without having the research amps and soundcards vs DAC's etc....

I'd make the suggestion of having line-level outputs for possible later upgrade options?
Also maybe 6 channel option for those who would prefer to run components on separate channels?

I don't know if those are easy to implement, but those are what would make it a must-have for me.

Cam

ca55e5a · 09-20-2007, 02:00 PM

I have a couple of amps, I've gotten from 41Hz.com

Cheap and huge sound for the price

But would like building something in the same league but with USB connectivity

scott_fx · 09-20-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by RedGTiVR6

sounds very promising to say the least!

While I would wish for high end audio, I think even a quality piece would be very popular and highly saught after. Just take a look at the 5.1 amps with optical in thread...lots of people looking for options that mean no processor necessary or line driver, etc.

Quote: Originally Posted by JC-S60

This is a poll to gauge interest in a simple and small car amplifier (4x40w, like used in a head unit).

The idea is simple:

- Audio input over USB (amp will be recognized as USB speakers in any OS - MAC, Windows, Linux, ...)

- Powered by the car's 12v (power regulator on board)

- Amp on/off controlled by 5v of USB (pc on = amp on, maybe with delay)

- Output for 2 to 4 speakers

Let me know your interest and/or ideas!

Joachim

Quote: Originally Posted by BiG K

I don't mean to knock your idea, I would most probably get one myself, but if it only has 4 channel output, would it not be easier and probably to just get a 4 channel amp and a USB external soundcard??

I just got an external Creative USB soundcard for $20 delivered, a four channel amp is probably $60-120 depending on type and power.

Quote: Originally Posted by JC-S60

That would work too, certainly... BUT

- It would be bigger

- It would be more cabling

- It would be more expensive most of the time

- It would be more complicated driver-wise in most of the cases (There are many known problems with soundcards going 100% volume after resume or needing a program to run in the background for all channels to work)

This amp WON'T NEED A SPECIFIC DRIVER, it's recognized by most OS'es (Win, Linux, Mac) as standard USB speakers using the OS built-in drivers

Just to give the info

Joachim

Quote: Originally Posted by JC-S60

That's the main goal of this project: a simple drop-in replacement for a HU. It would come with an ISO harnass so you just plug in USB on one side and the harness on the other - done!

Maybe a line-out to connect to a SUB-amp would be possible, depends on the price of components, but anything else would be complicating things and making it more expensive.

This product is aimed at anyone concentrating on the PC part of their setup, but still want decent sound.

Outside the carpc community, most people don't run amps and subs, only a simple HU. We want to offer the same simplicity and basic quality to anyone wanting to put a PC in their car, without wanting to do a major upgrade to their car's sound system. All that at a decent price.

The key here is simplicity. As we're also developping a complete carpc solution, I can tell you we've tested multiple external soundcards, and while they all produce very good sound, we encountered some problems too: external power needed, problems with upmixing stereo sound, high CPU usage (indeed - because of badly written drivers), USB-cable length and/or bandwidth issues (a lot of them require USB 2.0 to function right - our solution would be USB 1.1).

Thanks for you input!
Joachim

I think this is a fantastic idea and will get a lot of people to take the plunge. it'll save them money by not having to run a dedicated amp and all the cabling that is needed for it. It'll be a nice space saving alternative as well and just be a simple plug and play. This is the final hurdle that i think deters most people from going car pc. I think it would be foolish not to make this device. you dont need audiophile grade here, this should be marketed for the masses. people that want the computer but dont care about pure sq. On suggestion that i have is to try to integrate a 'pre out' into this design. this would allow those who want to add a sub to the setup and easy hook up. all the processing can be done on the sub's amp... just a pure full range signal with decent voltage (2v?)

BiG K · 09-20-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by JC-S60

That's the main goal of this project: a simple drop-in replacement for a HU. It would come with an ISO harnass so you just plug in USB on one side and the harness on the other - done!

Maybe a line-out to connect to a SUB-amp would be possible, depends on the price of components, but anything else would be complicating things and making it more expensive.

This product is aimed at anyone concentrating on the PC part of their setup, but still want decent sound.

Outside the carpc community, most people don't run amps and subs, only a simple HU. We want to offer the same simplicity and basic quality to anyone wanting to put a PC in their car, without wanting to do a major upgrade to their car's sound system. All that at a decent price.

The key here is simplicity. As we're also developping a complete carpc solution, I can tell you we've tested multiple external soundcards, and while they all produce very good sound, we encountered some problems too: external power needed, problems with upmixing stereo sound, high CPU usage (indeed - because of badly written drivers), USB-cable length and/or bandwidth issues (a lot of them require USB 2.0 to function right - our solution would be USB 1.1).

Thanks for you input!
Joachim

Ahh you should have mentioned you were designing a simply drop in amp

I wonder if it is possible to make two versions?? One version has the USB amp and one version in which you have to use a soundcard and it is only a straight amp??

Also you have to remember, that the amp has GOT to be tiny, because many people don't have much space in the dash board and also can't take up and slots. Maybe customizing a double din unit, with screen infront and amp behind with maybe a small fan to keep both cooled might be a good optional extra??

As to USB bandwisth issues, USB 2.0 is pretty much the standard these days, if anyone actually has a usb 1.1 motherboard, than you most likely need to upgrade....the processor will be crap!! There's USB 3.0 in the works at the moment!!

The USB cable length is an issue, using both sound solutions.

JC-S60 · 09-21-2007, 06:28 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by BiG K

Ahh you should have mentioned you were designing a simply drop in amp

I wonder if it is possible to make two versions?? One version has the USB amp and one version in which you have to use a soundcard and it is only a straight amp??

Also you have to remember, that the amp has GOT to be tiny, because many people don't have much space in the dash board and also can't take up and slots. Maybe customizing a double din unit, with screen infront and amp behind with maybe a small fan to keep both cooled might be a good optional extra??

As to USB bandwisth issues, USB 2.0 is pretty much the standard these days, if anyone actually has a usb 1.1 motherboard, than you most likely need to upgrade....the processor will be crap!! There's USB 3.0 in the works at the moment!!

The USB cable length is an issue, using both sound solutions.

I'll think about the two versions (with and without USB)...

It will be as small as possible!

Using USB 1.1 has the advantage of being less sensitive to interference and cable issues, even on 2.0 systems, that's why I mentioned it (also, there are p4 laptops that only have 1.1 ports !)

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